KeyboardMonkey Outtrades Memecoiners and Building Yeet

0:52What is up, everybody? We are back. Join year of gmoney. As you’ve probably seen in the markets over the last 24 hours, 48 hours, there is mass euphoria. We’re seeing all-time highs or local all-time highs across the board. The pump is on. If you’re a trader right now, gee, now’s the time. And if you’ve made it through the bear, if you’re stuck around, you’re getting rewarded right now. We’re seeing more and more people come into crypto. There’s new capital injection coming in. And not the planes of the meme, but I’m a true believer that we’re actually starting to see more creators from a content and media perspective start to make names, get notoriety. Whether or not that’s only inside our ecosystem or external, it’s truly happening now where it’s cool to be a trader and more people want to do it because it’s like the new streaming. It’s like the new YouTube creator meta almost. Do you think, okay. So do you think that’s just because we’re in our echo chamber or do you think that’s real? No, no, no. Look, have you been spotted on the street yet? Yeah. Hunter. Yeah. 21, 22, like last cycle.

2:07No, I’m talking about in the last like month. In the last month.

2:10Um, I would, I’d love to get like thread guy or razz more on here and be like, how much? Cause like I remember at peak NFTs, I would be walking around Manhattan and like random people would be like, yo, g money. I’m like, what am I? And like, and like almost like mini celebrity status. I’m super obviously cause razzmer and thread guy live in New York and they’ve been streaming a bunch over the last two years. Um, I’m super curious how often they get stopped on the street. I, you know, cause cause we’re in, we’re in the bubble on the street.

2:42I did have an Uber driver. I had an Uber driver who was like, yeah, I trade crypto.

2:47And I was like, oh, that’s sick. I was like, who do you follow? And he started listing people.

2:51And I think you said, I think you said you, and I was like, oh shit, you probably know me.

2:54I was like, he’s like, he’s like Hunter. He’s like, oh, the only Hunter I know is like Hunter Orrell. And I was like, that’s me. And he was like, no way. And I was, I was like, oh my God, I’m about to get robbed right now. I was like in the like sketchy as part of Brooklyn. I was like, it’s over. We’re done. Um, no, but I’m sure they have to at this point, right? Like it’s big enough. I know. Um, I hadn’t, I had a girl send me, uh, a TJR clip being like, should I buy crypto? But she didn’t send me anybody else. But TJR was already on the other side.

3:29You know what I mean? Like he was already like, I would consider a TikTok guy before like a crypto guy. You know what I mean? Like he was, he like made, he made his name on TikTok.

3:38Yeah. Can we, can we talk about the clipping side real quick? Because I think you and I have a little bit of insight here. Like there, there’s clearly a little cabal that is running the same playbook of, and maybe cabal is not the right word, but we’re starting to see it clearly become like a meta where I think Thread Guy, Razzamer, Banks, um, all like this and TJR also, Res probably also sees it. Trading actually will become like an archetype for the creator economy. And meme coins were really stupid and crypto was really stupid and not, none of this was cool from previous cycles, but now that the president, his family, and you know, we have some people that are putting out content and being like, oh, how much money we’re making? Um, it’s, it does feel like we’re rounding the corner where it’s like, Hey, now it’s cool. Being on a leaderboard is cool. Having a mass following and like doing merch, having these live streams, like it’s cool all of a sudden. Um, I think it took a solid decade for it to get accepted as a technology. And now you’re starting to see over the last couple of years, it get accepted as something that people do. Crypto or trading? Both, both. I, like, I think trading has always been cool. A hundred years, hundred plus years. Trade. Okay. I guess

5:05here’s my thing. And I’d love to get KBM on, uh, when he comes on. Yes, we have special guests.

5:10It’s like, dude, trading, like trading, like all these clips are like glorifying the lifestyle. Like don’t get me wrong. Trading’s fucking awesome. You can afford anything you want, but like the, the day, the, the daily grind of trading to be good, to be competitive is very boring, right? Is like, it is not traveling around the world on private jets and like driving lambos and getting bottle service at whatever at a beach club.

5:43Like trading is sitting at your desk, glued to your screen. And even when you’re not at your screen, you’re still glued to like at your desk, you’re still glued to your screen because every micro movement in the market you need to capitalize on. So like, let’s, let’s, okay.

5:56This is such a, I love this topic that we’re starting here, but yeah, you gotta take like the actual trader, like a guy who wakes up and walks to work and sits down his desk and goes home, sleeps and just repeats that seven days a week versus the trader, like the actual content side.

6:13And that is what I think has made the breakthrough here, which is if you tried to make crypto content or trading content, um, yes, you can make content on like equities. And we’ve seen people, you know, do very well there, uh, from like a business and newsletter standpoint for, for equities and options trading, but for crypto specifically, you could not break out of our little ecosystem. And if you did, everybody is like, look at this clown that is so stupid.

6:41Now it in this like, and I would, I would say AI is outdid because of this, like everybody’s like, I gotta get out of the rat race. This is my time. I gotta make it. So now this is the way.

6:52But also part of that is that it’s now easier to buy tokens, right? Like I even like, if I were to tell somebody to be like, Hey, buy this token, right? Now it’s easier for them to buy it. If they have a Coinbase app, if it’s listed on Coinbase, if it’s not listed on Coinbase, I’d be like, Hey, download this app and you can buy it on this app. Right. Whereas, uh, previous cycles, right? In 2021, bro, like I tried, like trying to onboard people to NFTs, trying to onboard people into, you know, buying, uh, I don’t know, uh, synthetics on chain. If it wasn’t listed, like good luck. You know what I mean? Like I gotta spend like an hour of my day to get you to buy something. Now I’m just like, yo, download FOMO and like, here’s the ticker. Right. And much easier.

7:36So I think it has to do with that more. So I think before, uh, people that would make content, um, catered only mostly to crypto people, because like, if I saw a token, if you saw a token, you know how to buy it. You’re like, all right, just give me the contract address.

7:52I put it into Uniswap. I’ve done this a million times. I know what I’m doing. Right. If I were to tell somebody buy this contract, like, like even to this day, like I’m like, if this thing’s not listed on Coinbase, I can’t tell my friend to buy it. Like, so because then it’s going to take me like an hour of my time to get them to set up like an on-chain wallet to be able to buy this on chain and they’re going to be like that. That plays in. That’s like a big part of it, which is everybody’s like, this is my last chance to make money and get out of, you know, the, the underclass. Now it’s super easy just to download something and put it in an email and get a, a wallet and find it with Apple pay. And now that everything is like social and the wallet infrastructure is all, uh, abstracted out, you have people being able to just be like, all right, that’s cool. I want to make money. I’m in deposit. Oh, I made money. This is sick.

8:44I want to be like the, like, I want to be the biggest now in this, in this sector and I like make even competitive. This nature comes out. Um, I do. Which I mean, we spoke about yesterday, right? Is like, um, I mean, these are hot wallets on people’s phones. Like I, this is, you know, like, it’s been like, if I had a hot wallet with seven figures on it, like I would not like nobody would know where I was, you know, like, I, like ever, like in real time, I would like not want to be known where it cause dude, like, I tell you, I never told the story. I, we went to, uh, we went to, um, me, my brother, Dylan, tropo farmer, uh, rhetoric, uh, who’s a close friend. We all went to the board ape, uh, concert in Brooklyn, um, at the steel mill or whatever, or whatever it’s called. Uh, we’re sitting in the crowd and like I pull out my MetaMask and we had been doing a very big transaction earlier in the day and I had moved money into what I thought at the time, like was a cold wallet, but I had put into a hot wallet and we’re sitting in this crowd and somebody is like, Oh, like, can you pull up? Like, what do you have? And I opened my MetaMask thinking like, all right, there’s probably only a couple hundred dollars on the hot wallet.

10:04And like the number pops up as I’m like holding the phone out like this and everybody like stares at me. They’re like, Holy fuck. You have that? Like, I mean, it was millions, right? And I, I quite literally was like, I didn’t just like send this off of the phone immediately because I had like three dozen people around me all seeing this and everybody’s like, Oh my God, this guy’s got like all this money on his phone. And I was like, I’m going to die tonight.

10:28If right. Yeah, it’s like it’s scary. Yeah. I mean, dude, like I think that I do you think this new class understands it though? Like we understand it. We’ve I’ve I’ve had friends get kidnapped.

10:42I’ve seen people have fingers chopped off. Like we’ve seen things go crazy over the last decade.

10:48Have you been around since like the early like, I don’t know how you operate, but like, I never post where I am in real time ever. Like, you know, because it’s just like, I mean, that’s why I’m private on Instagram now. Like I, I enjoy sharing what I’m up to, but um, you know, I, yeah, I mean, I, I, um, yeah, like I’ll post usually like I’ll post something maybe as I’m leaving or like after I left or whatever, but like I won’t like if I, if I get to the spot, like I generally won’t post it in real time for my, like my own safety, right? Like I don’t know, but like what’s, you know, like, I don’t know. It’s a good, I think this is a good chat for anybody who’s new in trading, getting into it. Understand that you’re walking around with either whether it’s FOMO, the Pump.fun app, Lute, uh, Venomass, Phantom, whatever. If that is on your phone, I almost, I almost think that like these apps, I almost think these apps, and I know this isn’t, I don’t even know if they’re designed this way.

11:53So my question to you is, as the Lute Thunder is, um, is there a way to kind of make it not like, uh, like a double, like you can’t take money out. Like if, let’s say I would be like, hey, look, I have a million dollars on my Lute account. I obviously trade, let’s say I traded for my phone, I know you can trade on both, but I want to like kind of throttle, um, descending somehow, right? So that I have to confirm or something, something so that like, doable. Like you could have Q factor, you could have hardware, key release, like some other stuff because it’s like, I’d be like, yeah, like I want to trade on my phone.

12:31I understand the, like the appeal and the allure of trading on your phone, right? You’re on the go, you put on a trade, boom, you’re in, you’re on the leaderboard, all this stuff. But then, but I also want to make sure that nobody can like come up to me and kidnap me and they’re like, give me all the money on your phone. And be like, I like don’t have access to the money on my phone.

12:54Look, these, these are not like unsolvable problems. These are, you know, a day. Listen, if this is the beginning of the bull market and, uh, we’re going much higher from here, a lot of these balances are about to get pretty nutty and this is going to become a real concern for people. Yeah. Yeah. So I think it’s just something anybody that’s building a mobile app should be thinking about. Yeah. You’re not pranksy walking around with 20 million and, uh, nobody really knows who you are. It, if, you know, New York, New York is, is the jungle man. People are going to find out. I have a feeling here, uh, unfortunately, but, um, look, the whole reason we’re having this conversation is we are back in the bull market without a doubt. Um, Trump is trumping. We have, uh, an incredible rally. Uh, we, we saw some, I think, some rate numbers came up this morning. Uh, not fully sure. I saw something around that, but everything, everything looks pretty optimistic here. And I have somehow not made a million of these things. Um, there’s going to be plenty of opportunity to make money. Exactly. So, you know, I, I’m annoyed. I didn’t, um, like I think I took, I said it yesterday, right? Like I saw the news.

14:20I like had a phone call. I missed like the first move. So then it’s like really hard. Like I bought some, uh, BNB, um, whatever two days ago, I think I said, I sold a little bit. Great call on the BNB. I think, um, it was, uh, let me bring it up. Let’s see. Um, nope. Not on my list. I’m still dude still getting used to this bad boy. Yeah. So I bought it. I think I like six.

14:49I bought it around here. I bought it in this area. I sold a little bit this morning on this pullback. Do you think we have a pullback here? I’ve seen, uh, easy, easy eats. Um, I’ve been chatting with a little bit more than I usually do over the recent days, but saw him tweet out.

15:06He said, I think, uh, we revisit Lowe’s one more time. Uh, I can’t tell if that’s just a contrarian tweet, just a, just to be the only person not saying higher in the room, um, or what, but you know, look, we’ve had insane numbers, 20, 30% gains across the board. Um, it feels like we’ll see a pullback of some sorts here. Yeah. I’ve also seen a chart of like 23k Bitcoin, where if you waited for a pullback there, the next time it pulled back was like around 80k. Um, so you just missed the entire cycle. Um, I definitely think there’s probably going to be some pullback. There’s going to be like some consolidation. The question is how much did we pull back? Um, listen, I think the market took what Besant did as a very, very, very dovish, you know, I, and I, I know people were attributing like, I think the pump like yesterday to kind of like, uh, Trump saying something about like actually, uh, buying Bitcoin on the open market for the Bitcoin reserve. Honestly, like I don’t, I don’t know if that’s me that there’s some incremental buying from that, but I really do think the majority, the reason why we’re seeing a violent move like this is because, um, I don’t know. I don’t think market participants in like

16:25the bond market and FX market necessarily thought that, um, we’d be doing this with the stock market at all time highs. Right. So I think to me, right? Like, and look, this is, this was when the announcement was made, uh, rates went down, reversed the entire trade yesterday. And now we’re like at or above yesterday’s levels. Besant, uh, I think in a press conference or he was asked a question and he said something to the tune of, uh, we have asymmetric information. We have information that the market doesn’t. So, you know, we have, like we, we know the full deck, we know that’s what he was saying. Right. And obviously as an official, he, he wants to, he wants to, uh, strong on the market, right? Like he, like for him, it’s best if the market’s like, Oh shit, he’s tricks up his sleeve. What does he know? Yeah. He’s got an ease of the square people, right? Like kind of like, I mean, this is what the whole forward guidance stuff started. And a lot of it started with Greenspan, right? Where he would, he would kind of like talk of like, this is what we’re going to do. And so then the market starts doing the job for him when they’re like, Oh, if this is what they’re willing to do, right?

17:36Like that’s where like the fed book comes from. It came from Greenspan in, uh, was he in 98 or was he right after? I don’t remember, but like it came from him being like, this is what we will do. And so because of that, the market started doing it, uh, started doing his work. So now the issue right here is the 10 year has, uh, retraced back to highs.

17:58Maybe he’s going to have to increase the amount. He’s going to have to strong arm even more. But like, I think to me, like the, what the, what Bitcoin’s reacting to, um, where is gold, what gold is reacting to gold highs, right? New all time highs is the fact that this is happening with the S and P 500 down. I don’t even know what percentage that is.

18:24That’s less than 5% from all time highs. Right. So do you think would, would like, would something just break or are we expecting something like something would break here?

18:36Cause it doesn’t make sense that it’s happening while we’re at all time. Why is like, do you think, um, to me, it shows that like, there’s something that central bankers are concerned about, right? This is why there was intervention in the yen, uh, a couple of weeks ago.

18:48And that’s kind of what it started a lot. Like that’s when that’s like, you know, I’ve said it now a couple of times. This up move started after the weekend intervention here.

18:59But bottom gold, like intervention in the yen, right? This move is, uh, buying the long end of the curve. That’s what Besson did whatever Wednesday. And so the fact that usually these types of things start happening when the markets in turmoil, right? When there’s a bank failing, when, you know, there’s a lot of despair going on in the world. So like, usually you wouldn’t expect this type of intervention, unless the SMP was down like 20%, 15%, 30%, you know, like these, these like big down moves, kind of like what we were seeing with like AI, like last month, where like people are just like, Oh my God, these things are going to go down another 50%.

19:42That’s like, and like, that was just like one sector, right? But if the market is down like that and the market is imploding like that, that’s when like the central bankers, is this all lined up around like with, with the AI, uh, flush out, like, could, could it make sense that there’s a country or a bank or like a very massive player, like I caught up in that somehow.

20:04And we just, like, it’s been, I’m sure, I’m sure that that’s a possibility. I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t say no. Right. Um, but I, I think like I go, I go back to the reason and maybe this, this kind of maybe plays into the thesis I was, I’ve been talking about for, I mean, almost a year at this point of if you view AI as defense spending, um, and like a matter of national defense, we have to, like, we can’t stop the AI build out, right? So if AI implodes, then like funding for AI also implodes, and then we lose that race, right? And so if the government is, let’s say, let’s say this is all AI related, then it would make sense why they might be intervening right now. Cause they’re like, Oh, if rates get too high, then, um, the hyperscaler interest rates go up, then we can’t build more data centers. Then the AI build out slows down. And pretty much all growth in the U S economy for the last three, four years is, is tied to AI. And then that makes like that, that’s where my head went though is like, this is AI related and there, there’s a thumb on the scale type thing happening.

21:12And that information, like when they’re like, we have information you don’t have it’s all right.

21:17Like we have to, we have to keep acceleration going. Um, well, here’s the thing is I think when, when Bessin was saying we have information you don’t have, I think he was kind of saying is like, he was saying that to strong on it, he was like, cause if you’re saying that the reason why he did this is cause the AI trade is imploding, then that would say we’re in a position of weakness. And then the market’s definitely gonna call his bluff. Uh, I didn’t listen to the actual clip, but, um, I think he was implying that we know growth acceleration is coming.

21:50And so for that reason, we’re willing to like intervene here. The market thinks that let’s say growth is slowing. So interest rates should be going higher. Um, it’s, it’s more probably of that. Like he’s, he’s trying whether or not like they feel like in a position of strength, it’s like a bluff, right? Like you’re playing poker, right? And he’s playing poker against like the biggest market participants in the world that if they, if they think he doesn’t have the nut flush, like you’re going to call them out. Right. And we’re like, we’re playing our own game of poker, just watching, like betting on that game essentially. Yeah. Like, I love this analogy.

22:25I’ve not thought of it this way. Yeah. We’re participants in it. Um, and like we make our decisions of where we think, you know, the risks, that’s why I think going back to like the oil, the oil trade. That’s why like, I never liked trading oils. Cause like, there’s so many other factors that play that I can’t, I like, I don’t know what Kuwait thinks of like what they’re going to do with their national output. And that like obviously affects the global price of oil.

22:50You know what I mean? So it’s like, but at least I think we’d like, you know, the largest central banks, you have an idea of what they’re trying to do, right? Like, you know, what Trump wants to do, right? He wants to get reelected. He wants to send the stock market to all time highs. He wants to lower rates, right? All like we, we know these things. So then through that lens, you can kind of create like some sort of a thesis around what you think should happen under those conditions.

23:14Right. And again, that’s why I think like Bitcoin, gold, they’re both bids so strong is for that reason, right? It’s just that like, you know, I think we’re like, well, we’re at all time highs. We’re effectively at all time highs in the market. And we’re easy.

23:30That’s incredible. Like that, the basement trade, I like, I can’t say it’s bullish because like, that just means the price of everything’s about to go up again. So it’s like, you just want to own like hard assets, right? So like the price of everything being like, yeah, gold’s going up, Bitcoin’s going up, but also the price of your coffee is now going to go up as well. Right. So.

23:49Well, I look, I’m looking forward to my $25 Starbucks coffee when I go to New York.

23:57I mean, you’re, you’re already almost close, right?

24:01Well, look, I’m very simple coffee order guy. I’m not ordering like a tri triple latte vanilla soybean, white girl, Wednesday coffee. Although I know I give that energy. So.

24:14Okay. So let’s, let’s touch on your, your take here. Because we’ve talked a lot about like how we see things kind of moving, why they’re moving, maybe, maybe some thesis around it on, on trading. You and I kind of have joked, you know, this, we’re not sitting here coming on the show being like, Hey, we just made $10 million in the last 48 hours. What is there a trade here?

24:41Are you, what are you looking for? How are you approaching? So, so yeah, so I have like, I have, I think two thirds of my BNB position still on kind of like moving up like my, my mental trip trailing stop on it. I did it on like a little bit of leverage, like my, again, I missed the first move and I think I missed the second leg. And so now it’s like, all right. Like I’m trying to catch a little bit here, but like, I also am trying not, I don’t want to blow up. Right? So it’s like, you know, I bought that like cash and then I think I went like 50% leverage, right? Like, so one, one and a half X. I didn’t really go like much size, but whatever a good trade is a good trade. I just think that there’s going to be, you know, the majors are moving, right? Then at some point on chain will probably pick up on chain season is probably where we see like the crazy shit, right? Like where you can really you know, 10 to 50X relatively quickly, just because they’re smaller market caps, smaller tokens. So as money like flows into them, they’re going to go higher, right?

25:50And so, yeah, I just, I think like as a trader, am I annoyed? Like, I can’t be that annoyed personally that I missed some of these trades because like, I’m not sitting in front of my screen all day trying to trade this, right? So, but I do know that there’s going to be more opportunities. So that makes me more optimistic. Right. Yeah. What are like, dude, ETH is like 2400.

26:26And he came in and actually saved ETH from the bottom to ETH with FWA. Yeah. So you know, you know, who couldn’t run for their ledger fast enough? The second we have this up move was the ETH Foundation already selling into are they selling already? No. I believe so. I believe they’re a sell. Yesterday. Oh my God. It’s Jesus Christ. But like, so I mean, CMS holdings, I’m a very smart guy, very smart traders. They had a really good observation of the DATs, the way they were reflexive to the downside. They will also be reflexive to the upside.

27:07So at some point, when their price is above MNAV, they’ll probably start issuing shares to buy more of their assets. So it starts becoming reflexive to the upside. So that could be interesting as well. If Tom Lee gets another couple billion dollars to double down here.

27:26Oh my God. Do they’re getting this could be like the most insane bailout story of all time.

27:32I mean, like not not. I wouldn’t call it a bailout. I mean, it’s just like trading way out of it. Yeah, they trade their way out of it. But still like, look, these guys were.

27:41I mean, they’re just getting dunked on 24 seven for the last couple of months. You got to respect the hell out of it. Damn, that is crazy. Okay. So on the on the lower market cap side, what are what do you have in your radar? What do you what do you think is being overlooked? Like what do you have like a token that you’re like, I don’t know what it’s going to do, but it’s just caught the right narrative. Okay, it could be interesting.

28:10Well, FWA, I’ve been talking about it. Okay. I’ve heard about it. Um, I think anybody that’s been looking at my wallet knows I’ve been buying quote, Ron’s very low market cap. So I don’t like do, do your own research. The YOR, not financial advice. I just think it’s very interesting. It’s a one way 404. It’s an RWA play. I think it’d be really cool.

28:35Um, but I like implore you to do your own research on it. Yeah, I just think like, I think on chain, like, again, like, to me, the most interesting primitives I’ve seen on chain, are RWAs. And what FWA is RWAs and FWA is right. So like, I just think like these are a really cool primitives. I saw him, that guy, him, Giro, him, I don’t even know.

29:06He posted yesterday on Twitter, let me bring it up. Him got Gadria, him Gadria. Where was it? He goes, 2017 ICOs 2020 DeFi 2022 NFTs. Each a novel primitive, yet each a failed experiment for each was ahead of its time. A mistake. I’d say there seems to be planted amongst our string pullers without whom we forever be outlaws prediction, they will be revived. Right. And so like, I think you and me probably mostly agree with, with what he’s saying. And, you know, like I tweeted it, I responded to him and was like, yeah.

29:45And I think like all three of them are going to be coming together. And I kind of think we’re like seeing that already. You know, you know, I think stock brokers is a good example. Quotrons, I think is like an interesting example of like the merging of NFTs and how you can utilize these primitives beyond just being pictures. And this was like, I always loved this about NFTs. Even like last cycle is like, everything is an NFT, right? Your house is an NFT, your mortgage is an NFT, this hat’s an NFT, this watch is an NFT, right? There’s everything, right? And so now we’re starting to see, okay, like NFTs being used in more interesting ways. Now we have RWAs. Because like, I think like with DeFi, right, we had a lot of really cool primitives. The problem was when we were paying people yield, you’re paying people in the token to like, like you’re giving them the yield, right? You’re distributing the token. So then that causes downward pressure on the token, right? So that there was always that joke during DeFi summer of like, you know, to like, you’re the yield, you know, like you’re the exit. So you never, you know, you want it to be in pool too early. So you can farm more yield, right? That’s where you would get

30:57like the, you know, 50,000 APY. But that’s because like the smart money was just selling into you and locking in their gains, right? And so like, you were just like that, actually, but now, if you can pay out, like, if you can pay people out in like, NVIDIA, like cool, like sell NVIDIA, like there’s fucking, you know, a trillion dollars worth of investment managers that want to buy NVIDIA, right? So like your, your, you know, whatever, $10 million worth of NVIDIA sells, isn’t really going to move the needle there, right? So I think that that to me is like really interesting. So now you can like, see how one NFTs are coming in, then like these DeFi primitives with the RWAs and how they’re integrating. And then obviously, like the number one thing like that I loved about crypto, I remember when I first found crypto in 2017, well, I had found it earlier, I just like couldn’t figure out how to buy Bitcoin.

31:50But when I first like started going down the rabbit hole, I wrote this, like, I think it was like a three or four page, like white paper of like my thesis on the, on the sector. And I was like, this is going to change venture investing, because all of a sudden now, instead of like raising from a couple of venture investors, you know, capital formation can happen on chain, anybody can be involved. And obviously, we saw that with the 2017 ICO boom, we still always see that as the issue in crypto, right? Like people want to invest in startups, and they want to have that like x like, why should Bill Gurley or whatever insert venture capitals here be the only guy that has, you know, the 10,000 x returns that makes generally, I think maybe this is where we finally see Coinbase do something with their $400 million acquisition of echo, you know, like, like, it’s been quiet over there. I would assume they’re waiting for a bull market to get crazy with it. I also think it’s hilarious that like, boldly and it keeps posting the like these jokes about Coinbase how like, they refuse to list a meme coin, they must have listed something and gotten sued to like the next universe over and now they’re they’re gun shy like that, right? That

33:05could be it. I’m convinced of it. I mean, like, yeah, that could be I mean, I so like going back to what we were saying the other day, is that, you know, okay, so you look at 2017, right?

33:18ICOs, people wanted to do capital formation. Kind of illegal in America, right? So like a lot of these like ICO, there’s like the American stuff, the non American stuff, so then they have to start raising VC money, then VCs, right? These VC coins would launch at super high FTVs with low floats, scam retail into buying the top while they’re like selling either some VCs, the team selling their bag, whatever, all this stuff, then meme coins come out because people are like, yeah, I want that exponential upside. The problem is that like, they were just memes or like vaporware, there’s nothing it’s like vibes, right? Throw in NFTs around there, right somewhere as well, where you could say people are, you know, it’s a collectible, right? So me, Kobe said it best, right? NFTs are just meme coins with pictures, right? And so yeah, like that, like, if you think of cryptos, the everything casino, then that definitely makes sense. And so now, I think like, you know, we have the SEC coming out with some sort of regulatory clarity, which seems like, you can raise it seems like significant amounts of money, and still like, be under a good legal framework, you know, not breaking the law in the United States, I think it’s like $5 million for

34:32startup and up to like, $75 million over the course of like a couple years. So it’s like, you can raise a lot of money under like this token framework that they’re proposing.

34:42Like, you know, people want people want to like, do this stuff and do it like at a low FTV. You know what I mean? Like, they want like access to stuff, obviously, as early as possible, like kind of like, be seed investors, right? And I think that’s what crypto allows is like, people that are smart, it’s not necessarily like, oh, like, how big is your check or like, whatever, I’m sure that’ll always exist, right? Whoever’s raising money, you obviously want to have a stack cap table, because you want to have the right investors involved, you want to have like, you know, people that will help you out because they have invested interest. But like, I don’t know, I just think that, you know, if you’re like, I remember this in 2017, I was in WhatsApp groups with kids from like, I think it was like Stanford Blockchain Club, that were like in college still at the time, and we were sharing deal flow. And they’re like, Oh, I got access to this deal, you know, I have 200k here, I can only fill it for like 10k. And I’m like, Oh, I have 200k in here, like, I have like this much capacity, how much you want. And like, dude, and this is when I was using this before I even like met a mask. This was my Ethereum wallet, right?

35:51That’s how we did venture deals together on some stuff was just like, you know, literally texting each other and being like, All right, well, like, I’m in for this, you’re in for this, like, I mean, Justin Taylor, I did a deal where I think at the time, I was like, I was like fully deployed. And I think it was like half a million dollar ticket.

36:09And I was like, I’m in for I’m in for like 125. And then like, Justin Taylor, Snoop Dogg, these like two actors from LA who are trying to get into crypto, and a couple other people, like we all put money together. And like, that that deal would never have happened.

36:29I lost money on it. But the deal would never have happened had, you know, it not been possible, like just pull money instantaneously on the blockchain in an hour. I mean, which is great.

36:40Right. Yeah, no, I mean, that’s like the cool thing about crypto, right? Like even every time I try to send a wire out of my bank more than $10,000, I have to like then call and spend like 30 minutes on hold, like verifying that who I am and then getting asked like 50 questions of like, whether I want to send this money and this and that. I’m just like, bro, like, like, this is why like, I like being able to send a wire or money out in seconds or minutes, minutes, seconds, anywhere in the world for whatever a couple cents. Yeah.

37:18Yeah. So yeah, so I like hopefully, like all of this like comes together, starts to come together this cycle. And I think that’s kind of like, you know, like, I like make no mistake about it.

37:28I’m pretty, I am fairly certain that this up move has more to do with global liquidity than anything else. But with that global liquidity is coming new primitives that people have been building, which is interesting. And now it’s like, all right, again, at fair evaluations, then like, maybe like, you know, people, I think OSF had a good, had a good tweet on this earlier this week of around like, you know, like everybody has their own trading style. Like, so I’m not going to sit here, you know, people that crushed meme coins, whatever, like, that’s, that’s your trading style. And I know they’re like, Oh, this is like all the Fortnite players. And, you know, you’re like, a turning on. All right, cool. If that’s like your style of trading, so be it like, like, whatever, it’s not for me. What I prefer is kind of like thematic trading. And like, there’s a story there, there’s a story behind it. Like, Hey, this is why I like this, because these are the catalysts that are coming up. The catalysts aren’t in the next 10 minutes to 48 hours. The catalysts are in the next, you know, 10 days to 100 days, maybe. So it’s more of a slow cook speaking, but like, you can probably size up. You don’t have to worry about necessarily getting

38:36rugged while you get up and go to the bathroom for 30 seconds, right? Like there’s like, they’re all they’re giving takes. And I’d rather play that game personally. And that’s where, where I’m better. Like this is also like another game of don’t look at another person’s P&L and be like, damn, I wish I was that guy. But also don’t look at another person’s trading style and like portfolio and be like, Oh, damn, that’s what I got to go do to make money.

39:02One, you’re probably late to the trade already. If you’re, if he’s positioned that way and you’re not, and they’re up a bunch, but like, I will never try to trade like specific areas. Like I know, I know, I know, I know all coins and majors, but will I jump into the equity space and like, be like, I know this space better than anybody else and try to make millions of dollars. No, aside from a few names or like a sector here and there. But like, you know, I know there are people trading orange, orange juice and coffee and, you know, metal futures and stuff. And then they’re making more than I’m making every year. And I just know like, all right, that’s their game. They know it. I’m not going to try to play it. Yeah. I mean, I like that. A lot of this is just human, like a lot of human psychology, like I think is going to have to happen this cycle for you not to be miserable and cut your portfolio down to nothing. And I think you’re going to see, and when we’re in easy mode, yes, there’s going to be tons of money made, but there will be an equal number of people that come in and just try to like literally FOMO and YOLO. Yeah, they’re going to do it. People are going to FOMO the top on a ton of leverage. I think we already have seen,

40:18I don’t know, somebody that was like a ton of leverage shorting Bitcoin on like the first up move that happened. It’s like, oh, shorting a ton here and then losing like millions of dollars on Hyperliquid and stuff. It’s like, yeah, I mean, that’s what you get for gambling.

40:38Again, I don’t know how big that person’s stack is, but it’s just something to consider.

40:43Like that’s what, like for me, to me it reminds me of, there’s one time like I put on this, I was short Twitter, I think I’ve said it. I don’t know if I’ve talked about it here, but I guess I’ll tell the story real quick. Twitter had reported numbers. This was, this was over 10 years ago, I think Twitter had reported numbers. It was bad. I came in, I was reading a bunch of notes on it. I’m like, these numbers are terrible. The best analyst in the space, Mark Mahaney at RBC came out and downgraded it pre-market and he’s the best.

41:20So I started shorting more and I started loading up and I’m like, fuck yeah. And the things like trending lower and lower, this thing was setting up so that like, it was kind of like one of those like seller, seller, seller, and on the open, it was probably going to like go like to all time lows or whatever, just like scream down. And that was probably going to be the low for the day.

41:38And I was going to be flat into that down move. I was going to have like one of my better days in months or whatever. And so I’m like sitting there, I’m like figuring out like what other trades I want to put on. It’s Friday morning. Then all of a sudden 9.16, my P&L goes from like up a bunch to down a shit ton. And I’m like, what the fuck just happened? And so then I look, David favor came on to CNBC saying, Oh, Disney, Apple, Netflix, Amazon, Microsoft, like literally like name every fucking conglomerate, all looking to buy Twitter.

42:16And this is like, what, what the fuck? And like, literally got fucking destroyed on Friday morning. It’s like nine, it’s not like 920. I’m down a shit ton. I close out the thing because like my first thought like in these situations, like limit risk right away and then like analyze the situation. If I want to get back in, I can short it again. But like, all right, I don’t know what’s going on. I need to get like the full picture. So I get out and I’m, I’m down a shit ton. It’s like not, it’s like nine, whatever 25. And I know like the way I trade. And I know that like whenever I’m down a big number to start the day, I just kind of go on tilt. And a lot of times in the in, in my effort trying to make it all back in that day, I like double my loss and I make it worse because I’m trading more size and this and that. So I literally just like I remember it was like 929. And I just like shut off my screen, I walked out the door and I was like done for the weekend because I know by that point, like earlier in my career, I would have like stayed there and I would have tried to grind it out.

43:20And I would have tried to like get back to flat. But by trying to get back to flat, I would have been trading more size. And then I would I wasn’t thinking clearly. And then I would have lost more. There were plenty of times that happened where I was like I had a bad loss.

43:33And then I tried to trade my way out of it. And then I doubled or tripled my loss for the day.

43:37And like I would give back like my whole month because like I went on tilt. Right. And so like, how does that work? Like obviously, because I never worked a trading job. Like you get a book, you get you get an amount of money you can trade. And basically, the job is don’t lose money, make money. No, no. So I was I was trading prop. So I was trading my own money.

43:55Right. So I was trading a prop firm. You go somewhere, you put up capital, they give you leverage. But it’s for you. It’s first loss, right? So let’s say I put up 100 grand, maybe they give me like whatever million dollars, $2 million of buying power, what more as they get more accustomed to like the way you trade and comfortable with the way you trade, you can get buying power and like more leverage. But like, it’s all dependent on like, like I was very good at like controlling my my risk. So like I had like, I had good leverage, but I would like never utilize it. Right. Because like, obviously, the more leverage you use when you’re wrong, like, when you’re right, it’s great, you’re wrong, like, they’re really wrong, like, wipe out your thing, you wipe out your risk capital. So yeah, it was just like a first loss model, right? So it’s like, if I put up 100 grand, and I lost, like, they give me all the leverage that I wanted.

44:44But as soon as I put up 100, as soon as I lost 100 grand, they’d be like, all right, well, like you can’t train more unless you put up more money. Right. And so that’s, that’s the way these things work. And so like at a prop firm, it’s like, it’s like a thin line, right? Because like you want to put up more money. So you have a line that you can swing, right? But on the flip side, is the way these things are structured, the way they give you so much leverage is that you’re technically, I think it’s a class B or class C member. So it’s not like when you trade retail at a brokerage firm, if interactive brokers goes bankrupt, your money is like, whatever $500,000 is insured and guaranteed by the federal government at a prop firm. If you and me are at a prop firm, unless they have $10 million up, and you lose $12 million. So you blow through all of their $10 million and lose an extra 2 million, like, like you eat into my capital. So I’m liable for your loss. Right? So it’s like sometimes on those crazy days, like generally as a day trader, you do really well as a prop trader, you do incredible on a lot of on high volatility days. There’s always always those like couple traders though, that try to catch the bottom, they try to catch the bottom too early. And they’re big

46:06traders and there’s risk of them like blowing up. I’ll never forget the flash crash. This was maybe like 15 years ago, this is maybe like the flash crash. And I remember I was at a prop firm.

46:20And I remember talking to the risk guy like a day or two later. And he was kind of joking.

46:25He was like, Yeah, man, like we had so many guys that were like so red, because like also like the spy was trading at that point, like three points wide, like the spy. Oh, my God, wait, I see. I don’t remember this. That’s correct. Yeah, it was like it was like it was crazy. This is like again, like 15 plus years ago, this is like the original flash crash. And like, I remember like the risk guy was like, yeah, like I was basically just like, opening like I was like getting ready to like if we went down anymore, and we would have had to start stopping these guys out, like we would have probably been insulted. You know, it was just like it was like at the edge. And it was just kind of like, I was getting ready to pack it up. But like that was always the risk and like the fear as a prop trader, an equity prop firm is that yeah, I can make like a million dollars that day. But if like somebody blew up, like my money’s not safe. So for that reason, I would always leave as little money like usually prop traders like you leave as little money in the prop firm as possible.

47:24Because if God forbid that were to happen, like you don’t like you lose your cash, right?

47:29So it’s like, yeah, all right, cool. Like I’ll trade it in like my interactive brokers account.

47:33Not as much leverage, obviously, but it’s like I’m not like if you blow up at interactive brokers, I’m not liable for your loss. Right? Yeah, no, I, I can understand that I have not used a prop firm before. We’ve talked about standing one up with conjunction and loot.

47:53Obviously, trader main with breakout prop, which was acquired by Kraken, I believe. Yeah, yeah. That that has been successful for him and clearly, yeah, he sees value in the proper model.

48:07Yeah, no, they’re crushing it. I like I it’s funny, because I just recently found out of like what crypto prop looks like. And I’m like, I don’t even know like this world existed. I probably, I probably would have been deep in like the prop firm trenches if I knew if I knew it, because I understand prop, I understand how it works. I trained a lot of people on how to trade. I had like a group of traders that traded under me, but it was more fundamentals driven. But yeah, I mean, just like some of the inner workings inside baseball of that. But like, yeah, I mean, it’s just I think like, I mean, I wish we had KBM on for this for this segment.

48:42He probably got hung up on something. But he’s like, from my understanding, he has a prop firm background as well. So oh, really? Yeah. Yeah, I think he traded at like, one of there’s a couple prop firms, a couple of bigger prop firms in New York, and he was trading out, we were trading at separate at different prop firms that were like, I guess, competitors. Again, it’s an example of why I think New York if you’re if even if you’re in crypto at this point, you have to be in New York. Obviously, other places have better tax setups. But, you know, I think I think New York is just such a hub for like, where the biggest players are going to be born out of this cycle.

49:21Because I think there is an actual disadvantage to not being around the like, epicenter of conversation.

49:41And even in like a social setting, being around the players and the builders and the investors that are kind of, you know, shaking and making the industry.

49:46And I think that’s a big part of the theme. And are in these conversations in these offices, going to dinner with, you know, competing companies, engineer staff, and like, you know, obviously, obviously, like there’s still like rivalry there.

49:58But then you get to see like, oh, this is how they’re thinking this is where concerns are, we share some and it’s like, all right, like, it motivates you as well. It’s the best place in the world to be right now. And I think I think this has been kind of like a narrative. And certainly, I think some of the guys that are that are living there have like really boosted it.

50:16But yeah, I like New York is, I think, going to become like the place to be in Miami.

50:23Miami is on the down. New York was always the place to be. New York was always the place to be.

50:28New York will always be the place to be. I love New York. I yeah, I mean, I love at this point in my life, I love going to visit. I don’t know if I’d go back to live there at this point. But like, I love New York. New York is my favorite city in the world. There’s so much cool shit to do there.

50:45There’s always something to do. Always incredible food. Nightlife. There’s like, it’s just awesome. I love New York. But like, you know, New York, I think, like, is maybe having its come up is come up and again, maybe like it’s post COVID glow up. But I think New York, pre COVID, I still like it pre COVID than the post COVID world. But it’s definitely coming back to maybe what it was. Yeah, I, yeah, I think it’s there’s so many crypto companies that are now too, which is crazy. There’s a there’s a little sector around Union, Union Square that is just it’s everybody and I won’t. Is it? I feel like there’s a lot a lot of guys in by Union Square in Soho. There’s so it’s like Union Square within like one block of one to two blocks those two pockets. And I actually, there’s Brooklyn, there’s the building guys.

52:07There’s a lot of people. Yeah, but no, I’m talking like where the companies like headquarters are, like, like, there’s like the two main pockets, but I was joking, I wouldn’t get coffee by Soho Grand. And I, I was going to meet up with a bunch of like abstract and And some like weekly wisdom analyst guys who are there.

52:31But I’m at the coffee line. There are two engineers sitting at the table next to like the takeout area, wearing their chains, shirts, and quite literally fudding their company and like talking about internal like plans and being like, oh yeah, like I’m like sitting there like.

52:51Bro, you guys have- I think you tweeted this, right? I tweeted this and I was like, they have an active token.

52:55And I was like, I gotta get, find a short on this or some way to like get exposure.

53:02And then two days later, it came out that, well, I mean, I’ll just say it like at this point, and two days later, Phantom, and I think also somebody else came out that they were dropping support for Monad.

53:18And I couldn’t, I like, I could not believe that these guys were standing in this coffee shop, screaming this basically.

53:28That’s also what you’re around.

53:30But like, I also think back like, remember when you could, you could literally talk about anything information-wise to crypto and be like, yeah, nobody’s gonna know what I’m talking about. Now it’s like, all right, there’s probably people around you that knows somebody or like, oh, I heard this guy say this at a coffee shop.

53:45What does that mean? And it’s like, oh wait, that’s really, really helpful information.

53:51Yeah, I’m not sure what’s going on Monad.

53:53I would hope this Coinbase relationship they have continues to provide something to fruition.

54:02Obviously, Coinbase is very, very hands-on with that capital raised for the round.

54:10And we’ll see.

54:11I think it’s a hard world right now as a non-major layer that- What’s it trading at right now? Let’s see, let’s see what it’s trading at.

54:20Well, I think what I looked at was like basically at launch price somehow.

54:25I think it’s trading at like 10% on the- 334. You give it up on the screen and hold this up.

54:28I have it up on the screen. Yeah. I mean, look, I think most people think it’s probably like fully, like it’s down into the right.

54:36It’s not terrible right now, actually.

54:38It’s actually just above launch day, it looks like.

54:43What’s the FPV?

54:46Okay. I did like some Monad round a couple of years ago.

54:51I don’t know if I’m up money. Is this all right? My tokens probably start vesting in like four years.

54:5550% this week, no way.

54:57Look at this, it’s up 50%.

55:01Yeah, it looks like it.

55:03Yeah, let’s see. Let’s get the token price.

55:13Yeah. Yeah, I mean, just short of it. Yeah.

55:18All right, cool.

55:20I mean, let’s get some of that. I guess like this is, so this is I think one of the interesting things, right?

55:25I feel like memes have been very, you know, like PVP, right?

55:31It’s like, the reason why I think like liquidity bounces around from like change the chain or token to token is just because it’s the same capital chasing like the same returns or whatever. I think the interesting thing kind of with like, maybe like some of these projects now is that like, this is money that’s been invested.

55:51It’s almost like people that are harvesting gains from like IPOs and stuff can then like, from SpaceX can now start reinvesting that again, right?

56:00Cause they have that capital and liquidity event.

56:02And I feel like it’s maybe kind of like the same thing, although not really because you have to have like people coming in to buy those tokens from them, but like, I don’t know, it just, it could be, it could turn into a very PVE scenario on chain, right?

56:18Where it’s like people are now like making money from themes. So it was like, honestly, like a token like Monad, like, you could technically, you could have bought as much size as you wanted, right? Like for the last however many months, right?

56:31So it’s like, if you actually, like, I think that’s like the interesting thing about that one. Same thing with the same thing of pump. If you wanted to have $5 million in a pump over the last like, sick, you’re up, you’re with leverage.

56:41You’re probably up eight figures right now.

56:45Right. I mean, yeah. So, I mean, I think that like all this stuff is like hella interesting in that, you know, these are, these are things that you could really size into and because of that, wow.

56:59I mean, are you still in that? Like you were calling it out like around here.

57:02Yeah. Like 17, 18, point, point, 001, eight.

57:07No, I am not. Unfortunately. But look, like, I think my like niche that I understand a trade in better than anybody, I would say I’m at like the top 1%, 0.1% at this point is like the consumer trading space.

57:22Like I can look at any tech, I can look at any product and tell you if it’s good or bad.

57:28And if their position for acquisition and you know, what’s going to happen with it, pump.fun to me was obvious as hell.

57:37I think, I think, my, you know, I think Relay has a token.

57:44Relay is going to be in a, put in a really weird position, I think coming forward.

57:47Like I think you’re going to see anything around onboarding.

57:54Infra that has a token that start to rip.

57:59I just think, I think it’s like obvious, right?

58:01Like you’re going to have more consumers coming on. They want more abstraction and people want to trade more assets. The one that doesn’t have a token. And I think I, we have to give some praise to is, I think OpenSea is primed to become like a top three company in the space again, because of, and you talked about this earlier, that tweet, NFTs, meme coins, majors, all colliding with social, which they clearly get having a mobile application, which they do have perps, which they now support.

58:33And they haven’t dropped the token.

58:35And if they do it correctly, and they just, they slug it out of the park, like I can see a world where they actually have the distribution and the support for asset classes that they can compete with anybody. So, you know, I think, I think it’s kind of this, whether you think they’ve gotten things right or wrong, again, they’re just smart.

59:12They know business and there’s a reason they got to number one before.

59:17And there’s also a reason they survived a bear that wiped out every single one of their competitors, except for SuperRare. I think SuperRare is the only one standing at this point.

59:26Yeah. No, I mean, like a testament to OpenSea, right?

59:30I think at some point, I think, obviously I think dropping a token would, would help sentiment towards them.

59:36What would you do? Like if you were OpenSea dropping a token, besides getting, taking care of the OGs, the onks in the room, what would you do?

59:45So I don’t know. I know I’m in the, I’m probably in the minority on this in that I don’t know if I would give all that much of an allocation to the OGs because like that, like, cause like, here’s the thing is right.

1:00:05Like the reason why you would do it is because you’re like, you helped us get here to this valuation.

1:00:10That valuation is now long gone.

1:00:11Yeah. Right. And like $13 billion valuation is, is a yesterday.

1:00:16I don’t know what, I don’t know what they’re at now, but it’s definitely not 13 billion. Right.

1:00:20And so then it’s kind of like, how do you, if you’re thinking about this from like a founder level, it was like, how do you use those tokens to incentivize growth? Cause that should be what you should be using those tokens for, right? So like there is some element of like, okay, like, here’s a thank you that people are just going to buy.

1:00:38Like, like, here’s the thing is right. Like most people are going to get that token and full like full stack Hitler, right?

1:00:45And just like, thanks for the airdrop, open C at you onto the next thing, blah, blah, blah.

1:00:51So it’s like, what’s the point of even doing it then?

1:00:53Right. And so like, that’s kind of like my thought process is like, if people are just going to give me shit regardless and all right, cool. Like I won’t do that. Like I’ll just incentivize, I’ll incentivize network activity and the things that I want people to be doing that will help me grow my business.

1:01:08Cause that’s like what I think like over the next couple of years, especially now with like regulatory clarity is how do you incentivize, how do you use tokens as incentive mechanisms that will help grow your business, which helps grow your valuation, right?

1:01:27Which helps grow how much money you make, right?

1:01:30Or how much money you make to valuation.

1:01:32And so, yeah, so I know I’m in the minority on that.

1:01:36So I also, I don’t think I did that much trading on open C.

1:01:40I did a lot of more minting and stuff like that.

1:01:42So I’m not expecting a big airdrop at all.

1:01:47And like I said, it’s like, I think if I was in open C shoes, I would be like, what’s the past is the past.

1:01:55Even if we were to give people money, how much would that really change their sentiment?

1:02:03Like, I don’t know. Because like, no matter how much you give people, be like, oh, I spent, you know, I bought $50 million worth of NFTs in 2020 and 2021.

1:02:14And all I got was like a hundred K airdrop.

1:02:17Are you kidding me? Right. So it’s just like, you’re like, you’re in a losing proposition to begin with.

1:02:24And so it’s like, if that’s the case, then like why even spend any money at all?

1:02:27Like I think kind of like, I don’t remember it, but I think Luca was kind of talking about this where, you know, Pudgy probably did the biggest airdrop.

1:02:37Probably, maybe board A’s probably did a bigger one, but like they did one of the bigger airdrops in terms of like how much money they gave to holders.

1:02:46And that like, that didn’t really do them any, you know, like the token still sold off with everything else. It’s still, you know, people were still selling it for liquidity, people, you know, people still floor it.

1:02:57And like, they’re like, all right, well now, now what are you doing to give me money?

1:03:01Right. And it just becomes like, there’s never anything.

1:03:03So I just think like, as a founder, it’s like, all right, well, I will give you the token if like, I’ll give you, I’ll give you money if you give me money.

1:03:11Right. Like I’m not in business just to like, give away value. Right. Like that, nobody, like who would work and not earn an income. Like nobody would ever do that. Right. And so especially when you start a business. So I don’t know, that’s kind of, I know I’m probably like in the deep minority on this.

1:03:27So take that with a grain of salt.

1:03:29Yeah. Well, we do have a, I will tell you with a grain of salt. We do have a lay join here.

1:03:35We get them pulled up and things set up here to get our- Only an hour late.

1:03:46How are you doing? I don’t know if they can hear you.

1:03:48There we go. Oh my God. Well, welcome brother.

1:03:52Hope you’re doing well.

1:03:53How are you guys? My fault on that.

1:03:55We got the start times mixed up. How’s everyone doing? So I miss everything.

1:04:00Good. How are you? Good man. Chillin, the market’s wild, huh?

1:04:04I know. We were, we were kind of talking about that.

1:04:07I was talking a little bit about my prop days in equity trading. I was like, man, I wish KBM was on. Cause I don’t think we’ve ever been on one call together, but I think we like, we DM in okay amount of time, but like, I don’t think we’ve ever been on a call together.

1:04:23Yeah. I think you did the rec radio once, right?

1:04:25And that was it. Yeah. Yeah. Other than that, no, but yeah, we have the same background, you and I.

1:04:30Yeah. So I don’t know if people know that, but we were prop traders in New York city.

1:04:35Yeah. Good old days.

1:04:41We’ve come to like meme coin traders, I guess, of the equity world. It was all short term shit and scalping and whatnot, but yeah. Yeah. No, it’s kind of funny.

1:04:51Cause we were talking about it like yesterday on yesterday’s show of like, I always, I always laugh when, you know, you’re, you put on a position and you’re like, Bitcoin’s going lower here.

1:05:02And then like, whatever you, maybe it goes lower and then you cover it and then you flip, but you flip long and people are like trying to clown on you.

1:05:08And it’s like, dude, this is literally what trading is.

1:05:11Like you have a position, you have a thesis that could change one second later and you change your position. Like that’s the way trading works.

1:05:21Yeah. It’s funny. There was some guys like quote, tweeted me like yesterday after it all popped off, like quote, tweeting a short from like two weeks ago.

1:05:28They’re like, you’re fucking wrecked. I was like, ah, yeah. Okay. We’re still holding. But what else have we been talking about fellas?

1:05:36I mean, a little bit everything. I think the one, the one area that I’ve like, you’ve tweeted a lot about a lot and we spent, we started the show off talking about this is this new age of like trader, you know, the content creating trader now.

1:05:48And then this like, UNK verse again, broccoli haired, Chrome hearts trader that like live streams.

1:05:56And like a lot of these guys are kind of just talking down to me and like, oh yeah, like we’re, we’re the greatest traders of all time.

1:06:03I’m curious to get your take on, on like the reality check there that I think a lot of people might need.

1:06:08No, I mean, whatever.

1:06:10It’s just like a niche of trading that is happening right now that I guess these kids are being successful in more power to them.

1:06:17I don’t know if I’d really call trading, but maybe, maybe, maybe that’s the UNK in me.

1:06:21Definitely. I don’t think a lot of like hedge run guys would call scalping trading either.

1:06:26So it’s like, you know, it’s throwing the glass out this.

1:06:30It’s funny. Yeah. Like, so like, that’s kind of what I’ve been saying is like, listen, how you make money is up to you.

1:06:36Like there’s a billion ways to make money.

1:06:38And so I’m not going to judge people how they make money as long as it’s legal, right?

1:06:41Like it’s just like, that’s whatever.

1:06:43That’s your strategy. What I find interesting is how, oops, did we lose him?

1:06:52I think he just turned his camera off or something.

1:06:56Not sure.

1:07:01We’ll give him a second. Yeah. Technical difficulties here.

1:07:05Technical difficulties. Oh, he dropped. We’ll wait a second. He might’ve had an issue.

1:07:13This is, you know what?

1:07:15This happens in shows G. Is this our first like technical difficulties?

1:07:21Which is pretty good for like, how long we’ve been doing this at this point.

1:07:25Two months, I think, right? A little over two months. A little over two months.

1:07:35Okay, cool. Let’s see, what’s happening.

1:07:37What’s happened since we started the show?

1:07:40What’s happened? All right, let’s look over Nebbius for a second.

1:07:44Can you bring up the chart? All right, cool. We have the chart. So it did it’s secondary or it did it preferred yesterday.

1:07:52You know, if I were to add, you know, I’d be getting along here, use the stop, the lows here as like, you know, a trading position here. But this is like, kind of like shoulder, head, shoulder. Oh, you just put TA.

1:08:09This is a... Retroactive TA is the best TA.

1:08:12Professional TA. Well, I mean, this was predicting the future, right?

1:08:15So it’s like, you know, some sort of shoulder here, higher lows, you want to see it go higher.

1:08:20Ooh, SpaceX. Maybe could look interesting for a trade there using the lows from yesterday.

1:08:28Oh man, gold so strong.

1:08:31All these gold miners.

1:08:33CLF popping. Ooh, TAO. There we go. Finally. Wait, scroll out, though.

1:08:40Don’t scroll out.

1:08:41Finally. No, no, we’re not going to scroll out. You’re up 10% on this trade.

1:08:48Dude, I’m long from like here.

1:08:55My internet just went out.

1:08:57Yo, your internet just went out? Yeah. That’s what you get for spending the entire summer.

1:09:01I was taking pictures of like other devices and shit to send you guys to like make it, make sure you believe me. I was like, oh, it’s not gonna work.

1:09:09I believe it. He’s like, F these guys. Yeah. But it’s back.

1:09:14No, it’s been a big story anyway.

1:09:16Okay, so before you drop, you know, we were talking about how like, you know, trader content creation, and again, I don’t judge people by how they make money.

1:09:25It’s like whatever your trading styles, your trading style.

1:09:29What I kind of do have an issue with is like, trading is so easy because I’m like, bro, like trading is one is really hard.

1:09:38It’s a grind and it’s generally boring.

1:09:40Like you’re literally sitting in front of your screen 95% of the time, waiting for something to happen.

1:09:47You know what I mean? And then like you pass. And then when you’re not in front of your screen, you’re still, you’re staring at your phone because you don’t want to miss the next move in like whatever it is you were waiting for.

1:09:56Exactly. It’s like 99% downtime. So I mean, like this whole traders are celebrities things and they keep posting this fucking kimchi kid and he hung out with a rapper once. I’m like, dude, like, I don’t know what this narrative is all about or like why they’re pushing it.

1:10:09They clearly have some kind of motive behind them.

1:10:11Maybe they just want to be like more famous than they are.

1:10:13I mean, they are pretty famous on crypto Twitter and a lot of them.

1:10:17They have a crazy distribution network and they all push the same narratives.

1:10:20So I mean, it’s one way they’re making money.

1:10:24And I think like traders have been hanging out with celebrities for a long time.

1:10:27So most traders like hedge fund guys make a fuck ton of money. They’re obviously rubbing elbows with celebrities.

1:10:33So kimchi going to dinner with guno once is not really like that big of a scoop.

1:10:38Somehow the whole fucking crew thinks it is.

1:10:41So, okay, my theory, this is actually the first time I think I’m talking about it publicly. I think it’s an industry plan because I think like when you look at it, right?

1:10:48Is like, first off, I’m sure you can like, I’m almost certain you can pay guno some amount of money for him to post you on the stories, right?

1:10:57Like I just know it’s probably like $2,000 or something.

1:11:00Yeah, probably like 25K if I had to guess maybe 50, but like whatever, like he’ll post it.

1:11:06And so that’s one.

1:11:07And then two is like, when you look at it, right?

1:11:10Like it’s almost like it’s in like, there’s a lot of content that’s being created around kimchi now that he’s like this trader celebrity that will push the funnel down to FOMO, right?

1:11:23And so like to me, it’s like, yeah, this is like a great- Is this getting rid of fucking trader celebrity?

1:11:27He could be AI for all I know. He’s only in like still frames.

1:11:30No one’s ever heard of him before. He’s never spoken before.

1:11:35Like what the fuck is going on?

1:11:37They picked the worst guy ever to be a celeb.

1:11:39Some like fucking masked man still frame guy.

1:11:43120 pounds, sopping wet, but I don’t know.

1:11:45I guess that, you know, that- Wait, the industry plan idea is actually, it’s so plausible.

1:11:53It’s so plausible. Yeah, I mean, dude, like, I mean, they’re like, I’m sure I haven’t seen like what the traffic looks like to get people onto the app, but I’ve seen a couple of those things and they’re like, this kid was made $40 million and flies private and you can follow him.

1:12:10So it’s like, it plays right into that.

1:12:11So to me, I don’t know.

1:12:13I don’t discount that that’s probably what’s going on.

1:12:18Something possible thrown around a lot of fucking money, right?

1:12:20To try to get this narrative going and- Yeah. Yeah, I know. Then you see like, there’s only like a handful of wallets that I’ve ever made money and XYZ.

1:12:30It’s pretty close to gambling.

1:12:32I know, you know, I know a little bit about that.

1:12:34So shameless E-plug, the RTP on Eats better.

1:12:40It probably is, but you’re guaranteed to lose on Eats.

1:12:44You are one of my favorite founders of all time because you just, you are the most like, like if somebody talks shit about Yeet and they have no, like the whole thing with the guy buying the account Oh, that was like, yeah. Is one of the greatest interactions of a founder I’ve ever seen.

1:13:00It’s just crazy. I don’t know. I mean, like maybe there are times I’m like, maybe I need to shut up. I have deleted so many tweets that I would have pushed send on previously before being a founder. I’ve been really quiet.

1:13:12I’ve got a little bit more unfiltered lately and maybe I shouldn’t as a founder. I don’t know. It’s like a tough, it’s like a tightrope.

1:13:18It’s a thin line. Very thin line. I walked it with 90cc. I’m sure Hunter, you walk it with Lute where like sometimes you’re like, ah man, I really want to say this but like not good for business.

1:13:29My drafts folder, if it ever leaked right now, I would have no, like not a single founder or another company in this space. I’m like, if I’m coming after this person will they ever gamble in their life?

1:13:40Like I don’t want to like ruin that.

1:13:43And then some of them I’m like, they won’t.

1:13:45So I’ll just come after them.

1:13:48Their audience is mine and then they hate me.

1:13:50But yeah, it’s definitely a thin line to walk.

1:13:53There are a lot of people, yeah, all these tier lists and bullshit. I mean, it’s just another tangent but they just keep ranking us randomly low.

1:14:00And then we’re like, have you ever played the site? Cause we take a lot of pride in the site. Like none of it’s white label.

1:14:04Unlike a lot of the industry, we fucking spent so much money and time building and with devs and none of us are engineers.

1:14:11So it was like a huge grind and uphill battle.

1:14:13And like, we should have been dead a couple of times probably and we finally got it to a place where we’re doing unique shit and custom stuff and everything’s building house.

1:14:21So every time somebody talks shit, I’m like, I am a little offended.

1:14:25I do take it personally because unlike what some people think, like I’m not just like K-welling this.

1:14:30Like I’m literally like in the trenches all day.

1:14:33I’m head of product, literally on calls with engineers all day long.

1:14:38So yeah. But you’re not making, you’re not just putting your face into everything.

1:14:42Yeah, exactly. I think I’ve said that. I’m like, buddy, that’s when it gets me tilted too.

1:14:46They like that trading act, I kept saying that.

1:14:49I’m like, bro, I don’t even know what part it’s like.

1:14:50Not only do I have my the biggest equity stake in the whole fucking company, I am in the trenches hard as fuck. So yeah, it’s not just my face.

1:14:57Dude, I also, I wanna give you props for that too because when I had 90CC, I couldn’t trade and do 90CC.

1:15:05Well, I haven’t been trading really at all. That’s what sucks. My trading suffered badly last year when I was like, all in on this and it’s getting better now because we’ve hired enough people to take some easier jobs than I was doing. But yeah, it’s impossible balance.

1:15:19Like I’m sure as you’re about to say, it’s tough, right?

1:15:23Yeah, I mean, like, I think we got three founders on here.

1:15:26We all know that, right? So. Yeah, like I said this morning, gee, I was like, I missed so, I left so much profit on the table by not actively just trading. Like I think it would have been good for the rest of the year had I not been in like founder mode on 12 hours of calls yesterday.

1:15:42Yeah, right. I’m like, Jesus, trading is like so fucking good.

1:15:45Like, man, maybe I should just be a trader.

1:15:48I’m kidding. We’ll go back to being a plumber, you know?

1:15:51Yeah, we should be plumbing.

1:15:54Honestly, these Bitcoin kids, a lot of them should fucking pivot the plumbing.

1:15:58Plumbing is a big career. That will be super high paying and can’t get AI’d out.

1:16:02So honestly, plumber should be what you aspire to be.

1:16:05But a lot of them, I don’t think they can handle getting in crawl spaces and getting their hands dirty. That’s a new course. The new course flow is meme coin trader to plumber, how I became financially.

1:16:16You will be way richer as a plumber, my meme coin trading friend. I guarantee that, but you will have a harder life in Kals hands.

1:16:27I think I read or saw, was it Kupsi or Orangy?

1:16:32Like they were a gas station attendant before they started meme coin trading.

1:16:36Like a couple of years ago, I’m like, wow.

1:16:39I mean, that’s what I knew a lot of these kids, the allure is, right? You can kind of just waltz in and hopefully get lucky.

1:16:45And you know, if you make a name for yourself, of course you can keep dumping on your followers and whatnot.

1:16:50And it’s like a vertical integration.

1:16:53Right. I mean, I think that’s like, at least for me, I’d love to know, how did you get into trading?

1:16:59Because like, for me, like that, yeah, like, I was always like interested in the markets since I was a little kid. And when I figured like I had like good long-term ideas and like, well, I need to figure out how to make money in the short term. And like, I can figure this trading thing out.

1:17:12Like, and then like, I went through it.

1:17:14I put up money at a prop firm and never looked back.

1:17:18I mean, for me in college, I was just kind of like one of those finance econ bros, finance econ frat bros at Penn State, where the, what was it?

1:17:28Pablo Pledgekabar. Pledgekabar was just having the pledges to fucking bags of blow.

1:17:36Anyway, yeah, I wasn’t involved in that sadly.

1:17:38But I was there as like a just another frat bro kind of guy, like, and then did some interviews at prop firms, investment banks, all that stuff.

1:17:45And I got the job at my old prop firm at straight out of college. So I just came right out of college, worked at a prop firm, didn’t put up any money.

1:17:53They bankroll you, you know how it works. Like, they give you like, you know, 100K BP.

1:17:58And you just kind of have to like prove yourself about the smallest scale and then they level you up, they level you up. And, you know, a lot of people get cut, some people make it and then just kind of scales from there.

1:18:08And then from there, I mean, I was like a top 10 trader, probably like three years in and a couple more, you know, successful years, moved to a different firm, traded successfully there.

1:18:21COVID obviously was a ton of money and volatility for prop, just as well as crypto, trading crypto since 2017.

1:18:30So fairly early, but yeah, I mean, just always been looking at the markets and mostly short-term scalper trader though.

1:18:39I don’t really have any long-term gains.

1:18:43So it’s been- What year did you start trading prop?

1:18:462009. So I’ve been in the game a while.

1:18:49All right, cool. That was- When did you start? I started 2007. I literally started a month before country ride went under.

1:18:57Yeah. August 2007. I just thought I should get in here one second.

1:19:10I think you’re cut off. Sorry, fellas. Hunter, there you go. We’ll be out there in a bit.

1:19:15Zoom in a little bit. Sorry, daughter came in. Yeah, no worries. Yeah, no, you started right before the craziest time to be a prop creator, especially because, you know, systems weren’t as advanced back then either.

1:19:27So there was some crazy difficulties going on, right?

1:19:30In 2008? It was in 2007, 2008.

1:19:33Like I’ll never, one of my favorite stories from like that period was when Bear- So I was short a ton of Bear. And then I remember Bear, it was obviously trending lower. I think I shorted around like 100, 110.

1:19:48And it was trading at $50. And I remember the guy in charge of the prop from my sat next to him at the time, one of the partners. And he’s like, you should cover your Bear here. And I’m like, no, no, this thing’s going to zero.

1:19:57And he’s like, no, no, no, like you should- So I ended up, he convinced me to cover half.

1:20:01And then the next day is when JP Morgan announced they were going to buy it out. But like, it initially popped. Like Bear went from like $50 to like $68.

1:20:11And then everybody realized, no, they were buying it for like $2.

1:20:16And then it just like went lower like all day.

1:20:18But then it went immediately lower, sorry.

1:20:21But Lehman was just like getting sold like nonstop for the entire day.

1:20:28You were like catching points on Lehman.

1:20:30Like you short like 27, like 30 seconds later you’re covering 26.

1:20:35Then you short below, like it was just like craziness.

1:20:39And I was trading such small size because I was like still like generally a beginner, right?

1:20:43Like to your point is like, you get like a small amount of buying power and then as they become a custom, as you make money and they’re accustomed with your risk management, that gets bigger and bigger, right? And so, but yeah, it was craziness.

1:20:55But then Vol died down, like right after Lehman went under and I ended up moving prop firms because like just like that scout style trading stopped working for me.

1:21:05Yeah, I mean, that must’ve been insane.

1:21:07I would love to trade stuff like that. I mean, those days are sort of gone.

1:21:11Everything’s a little more efficient with their selling. Like they used to just like old stack Hitler for lack of a better term, like their position in the equity market.

1:21:19They would just nuke it like five points and it would just go right back up. So if you’re sitting there at your desk with the right filters, just scoop as much as you can and print five points instantly on like max size.

1:21:29That was easy mode for sure in those spots.

1:21:33But then like even then, right?

1:21:34Like talking to guys that were around before that, like that caught like 99 in 2000, that was like even easier mode because to your point, there were still people trading like on the floor and then they had like the NASDAQ system when it was like just starting and like the spreads were like a quarter wide or 50 cents wide.

1:21:54So you can like buy something at like 26 and a penny and sell it at 2649 before like the New York stock exchange would fill.

1:22:03And like they were just printing cash.

1:22:06It was insane. There’s been so many funny free money spots like that.

1:22:09It’s like natural gas used to come out at what 1030 on Thursdays.

1:22:14You would just say in which orders on both sides of the book and just get printed and then, you know, scalp a point. I mean, yeah, there are good times in the video game version of the market when it was still finding itself before James Street and Citadel and everyone came in and raped the fun parts.

1:22:30And like, but yeah.

1:22:33I feel like crypto for the most part, like the easy money is like mostly, like it’s efficient market. Yeah, it’s a physical now too.

1:22:40It’s like just as bad as equity market.

1:22:43Like if you went in like market buy like one, let’s say a million dollars with the Bitcoin on a perp right now, like it’ll just fuck with your position on a short term level.

1:22:52Just like equities.

1:22:54Yeah, it’s not easy anymore. It used to be super easy though. Crypto is like fucking a joke.

1:22:59Trading on Bitmex, those perps was amazing.

1:23:02Especially coming from somebody with a prop background. I was like, Jesus Christ. This is like a joke. This is like candy land. It’s like child’s play.

1:23:10They would look at it at their positions with $10 million like offers and just stick them low and just stack $10 million offer low over and over and over. Like just wait for them to start like decrementing and just take them out and just scalping out their fucking bounce.

1:23:22It was like, those are the good times of trading video game life.

1:23:26That was the easy mode, but yeah.

1:23:28Do you see any areas within training right now that maybe they’re not easy, but you think like there’s like more opportunity than other areas?

1:23:38I’m curious.

1:23:40Not really. I mean, NFTs were obviously easy too because there was such a big spread.

1:23:45Kind of like not dissimilar but you may be talking about trading fractions and NFTs were so wide and people were so sophisticated that it was easy to make moves there.

1:23:56Right now, no, I mean, honestly, I don’t really touch on meme coin stuff like on that granular level because it takes, you have to be super dialed in.

1:24:03And I mean, I feel like the only people who succeed are people who like make call outs, but I don’t know.

1:24:08Maybe that’s easy mode like where you’re just like, hey, I’m getting along this and a bunch of people follow you and you’re like, sell to them.

1:24:15That’s a bump note.

1:24:17Well, that’s, so it’s kind of funny cause like I tell people like, bro, if you were on my trading desk and you called something out and sold it.

1:24:24You sold it by the time I bought it.

1:24:26You would like, you’d be thrown out of the room.

1:24:28You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, are you kidding me? Like you’re using me as exit liquid. But like, I’d be like in crypto, people are like, yeah, man, it’s just a game.

1:24:43I mean, like, I guess that’s it.

1:24:45Game is game. You got to know who calls your phone.

1:24:48Is it some guy who dumps in soy or some guy who means it?

1:24:52And you’re trying to play hot potato.

1:24:54I don’t know. I mean, it’s not even just they’ll dump on you.

1:24:57They’ll dump on you and like tag you in a tweet and be like, thanks for the exit liquid.

1:25:01Thanks. Oh my God. Yeah. So I think that’s kind of easy for some people.

1:25:07Yeah. But you have to watch that, watch out Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, maybe they’ll regulate these markets someday.

1:25:17And some people get in trouble. They did it on a big scale, one would assume, but maybe they won’t.

1:25:22I don’t know. Maybe they won’t. Cause I mean, Trump does that too. So like, maybe when he’s out of office, like Barry making $150 million.

1:25:32It’s funny that like you mentioned that.

1:25:34Cause like, I think I saw a trader man, trader main talking about this, of how I didn’t know this, but do you remember Ian Belina?

1:25:42Yeah. Like the 2017 ICO days. But like, I remember him as the guy that was always posting his screenshots on Instagram of like, I’ve like, I’ve done all these ICOs and blah, blah, blah.

1:25:52But apparently there was some legal action taken against him like seven years after the fact, like a while after.

1:25:59So maybe, maybe there’s something coming.

1:26:01I don’t know. It’s probably, but to your point, it probably happens when Next, yeah. Different administration, right? I mean, Barron made 150 mil.

1:26:09Those who was loading up hype before that last call out.

1:26:12Yeah. I’m sure. That one guy. You’re hearing rumors. That one guy in the back. Yeah. I saw that guy smirking. He’s like, that was great.

1:26:20That whole press conference, I was just sitting there and like, crime is back, baby.

1:26:26Like here he comes. Like he never left. Guy made more in one mean coin trade than his entire goddamn 70 year old career.

1:26:36I think crime has been here since then.

1:26:38I mean, whatever. I don’t know.

1:26:40I don’t want nothing to be upset about, I guess.

1:26:43I mean, this has to be good for you in this like meta where and not just crypto, but like everything seems to be going gamble, gamble, gamble, gamble stuff.

1:26:52Like it’s just more speculation.

1:26:55Yeah. Yeah. Everyone’s open and just like gambling is how you have to make it all that narrative.

1:27:00I mean, like, I don’t think those narratives are like true.

1:27:01I don’t want to like say that’s true, but I know it is like the narrative that you have to take extreme risks to make it jump class systems or whatever you want to call it. Get out of poverty by taking extreme risks.

1:27:12I mean, you could just become a plumber.

1:27:14Like I fucking said, if I make my first game here.

1:27:17I mean, plumber electrician, right?

1:27:19It’s like 300 guys a year. Oh, those jobs are going to fit. Like if you’re a good one, you started business, you can make millions. No, no one wants to hear that.

1:27:26They want to pull up in your chair and just print some money by getting it out of your keyboard as they call it.

1:27:32It’ll be cool when people start making like plumbing edits and going to like 11 and popping bottles.

1:27:39I don’t think it’s a girl’s honor figure in somehow actually.

1:27:42I’m fucking New York plumbers who have some good accounts.

1:27:45I don’t know.

1:27:47Weird tangent we’re going on here.

1:27:49But yeah, I don’t know.

1:27:51What was the first question? I kind of got lost. No, it’s just like in this like world of like hyper speculation, like if you have more people coming in, like I’m curious how you guys are positioning there.

1:28:04I mean, yeah, I guess it’s good for us.

1:28:07For Yeet itself, it’s like crypto has been so like not volatile and dead.

1:28:12And it’s like you kind of second guess like the honor amps are to the casino.

1:28:16Like will people even be buying crypto? Is it just a pool of people who are sitting here that are just going to be passing around?

1:28:23I guess stable coins are obviously not going anywhere.

1:28:26People continue to use those. But yeah, I mean, hyper gamification is obviously good for us on all levels.

1:28:33We’ll continue to make like cool, unique games now that we’ve got the platform in a spot where you can do unique things.

1:28:39We got a lot of stuff planned to gamify the site, actually.

1:28:42So all good for us for sure.

1:28:45What’s been what’s been the like the craziest moment of running?

1:28:49I can see I’ve never talked to somebody like runs a casino, basically.

1:28:52What’s been the most expected moment of launching a casino?

1:28:56Unexpected or expected?

1:28:58Unexpected.

1:29:01I don’t know. I mean, like it’s like any business really, I’m sure, where you just like problems arise and fires come up and you have to put them out.

1:29:10And our fires are just like maybe somebody trying to exploit a slot.

1:29:14But it’s like our team, our ops team is a lot of x-traders and pattern recognition.

1:29:18You’re just like, this is just sus and myself and Ben Lamb and other guys have a lot of experience gambling. So we’re just we just are more equipped than other teams that just kind of like walk in here in the right place, right time. We get like no patterns and things that shouldn’t be happening and, you know, are possible or are impossible.

1:29:37Other people maybe don’t like same with spark sharp sports betting.

1:29:40I don’t think like it’s very easy to take us out on that level, not trying to not trying to get anyone to try. But you hear like like Rollbit lost like 100 million of Tony Bloom, like fucking I know of another casino recently and just lost probably the whole bankroll to a big Turkish guy Aldo.

1:29:59Yeah, I don’t know. There’s a lot of landmines, but we’re well equipped to handle those.

1:30:02So that’s been a fun part of running it.

1:30:08I mean, obviously like we’ll go ahead.

1:30:10You’re like the modern day ace, ace, rosting.

1:30:15Yeah, imagine I wish.

1:30:19That was a casino reference. Yeah, for anyone too young, unfortunately.

1:30:25Yeah, I don’t know. And it’s like what’s unexpected.

1:30:28It’s hard to say. I mean, everything’s like sort of predictable because you have the math.

1:30:31So I mean, obviously there’s been some massive wins and you question like if it’s on our custom gaming question or our custom game mechanics or whatever.

1:30:39But our devs are so good that we really trust us everything we do.

1:30:45I think the unexpected part is just how hard running a business really is.

1:30:47Like I thought I was just going to walk in, make some fucking casino and get rich.

1:30:52And I haven’t made any money.

1:30:54And it’s been two years and it’s not easy.

1:30:56And it’s all day long.

1:30:59It’s not that easy to make businesses.

1:31:02Yeah, no, it’s funny you say that because like you guys can both attest to this.

1:31:06I experienced the same thing with 90s.

1:31:08It’s like with what I experienced was like there’s always something.

1:31:14Everything’s always hard, right? Like trading is hard, running a business is hard.

1:31:17They’re just hard in different ways.

1:31:19And you just kind of have to try to find the thing that like makes the most sense for you.

1:31:24That you’re like, that you feel like you can tackle.

1:31:26But like, I can’t tell you how many times I would wake up and they’d be like, hey, like there’s like 7 a.m. before I even drink my cup of coffee.

1:31:33They’re like, oh, there’s an issue with blah, blah, blah.

1:31:36And it’s like getting punched in the face.

1:31:38And you’re like, wow, I didn’t expect that have to deal with this today.

1:31:41But now this is what like my number one priority is, right?

1:31:45Yeah, the never ending list and stuff like that, which is fun, too.

1:31:47It’s like a trader is like more of a lone wolf lifestyle that I was leading.

1:31:53It’s like I didn’t like you trade with like other guys you trust on a headset and prop at least so it’s like four or five of us.

1:32:00But it’s not like I’m not like following people’s calls ever like super independent in that regard. So there’s definitely more lone wolf. And then when you come to work in a business, like managing people, being on teams, having people rely on you, definitely like a cool vibe switch.

1:32:15It’s been a lot of fun. Yeah. I mean, like our team is like almost 60 people now.

1:32:19So it’s definitely graduated to a very big company.

1:32:22So, yeah, it’s a it’s a lot of people in the engine room here.

1:32:26Well, it’s also not even just like the internal stuff.

1:32:29Like we we feel this like the phone overs pump versus, you know, axiom and terminal kind of war that’s going on mostly pump versus FOMO right now.

1:32:39Like you are you going up against these huge name casinos that have bankrolls that are I mean, they must be hundreds of millions of dollars and they’re spending insane marketing dollars.

1:32:50I’m sure there’s smear campaigns and like not everybody’s playing nice.

1:32:55Right. Like you are in cutthroat industry.

1:32:59Yeah, no, that’s it. It is hard to go against these incumbents and behemoths of companies.

1:33:04They do a lot of things and it’s hard to compute them.

1:33:07We kind of like luckily our team is like super, I think, sharp.

1:33:11And we kind of look at it and think about where we can succeed versus them.

1:33:15Like we’re never going to fight rainbet, buying marketing and Instagram and like all that shit.

1:33:20Like that’s where they they run it. Like we’re never going to be XYZ on bonus because they can over bonus people.

1:33:27You know, we’re never going to be like stake on custom slot providers and all the shit they do well.

1:33:32And, you know, just being the biggest name and having the best influencers.

1:33:35So like what can we do the best that we can play moneyball with?

1:33:39Like we don’t have like the biggest bankroll. We did have financing rounds and we’re completely fine and we’re profitable.

1:33:46But we can’t take like massive limits.

1:33:48There’s other casinos that pop up that take huge limits.

1:33:50They get smoked with some variance and they’re gone.

1:33:53Like we never do stuff like that.

1:33:54We kind of just like play our moneyball style and think we’ll auto win eventually once we just like survive.

1:34:02So with that being said, like we’re like, what could we be best at right now?

1:34:05It’s like more community based stuff.

1:34:08So if we create a gambling community where people like feel comfortable coming to the site and make friends and show up and chat like they talk to me, they talk to Ben, they talk to Michael.

1:34:17And we’re always accessible and we’ll listen to everyone.

1:34:20That’s kind of like the route we’re going, like our retention on VIPs is like from our data.

1:34:25It’s like the highest in the industry now in the lower level is not we’re trying to fix that.

1:34:29We’re making like lower level efforts for retention and help these people and make that community aspect trickle down like we want.

1:34:36We don’t want it just to be like siloed to, you know, the people with a ton of money.

1:34:40But yeah, I think that I don’t want to give away too much of the roadmap, but we’re doing a lot of stuff with gamification on the community side that we think we can leverage.

1:34:50Versus these behemoths that they don’t have a lot of it comes back to a marriage between video games and gambling and the systems that made, you know, MMOs really popular.

1:35:00So I used to play a world of warcraft back in the day when I was a kid for like when I was sick.

1:35:05I was in the hospital for a while, so I played nonstop and EverQuest as well.

1:35:10So I have like these visions of taking stuff like that and marrying it to the casino side.

1:35:15Whether you want to say that’s like, you know, marrying two addictions and trying to make people more than that’s kind of where it’s at.

1:35:22But it creates a community aspect. So we want to create that vibe where it’s just like a fun community to come back to.

1:35:28That’s our edge. You can show up. You’ll have a good time.

1:35:31You’re not going to come to the chat and people are just like compliant, complaining and begging and all pissed off and upset.

1:35:38Like people are pretty like positive in our chat.

1:35:40Like, yeah, it’s gambling. Like if you sign up on heat, you will lose over time.

1:35:45Like there’s no there’s no lying there.

1:35:47There’s an edge to the games. Obviously, gaming is like you’re trying to capture variance in a near term and have a good time.

1:35:52Like, yeah, you can capture variance and win, but you will lose if you keep playing.

1:35:55I don’t think anyone should like, you know, not recognize that.

1:35:58But we want to make it like a fun environment to do that.

1:36:01But battling the behemoths of streamers and all the shit, it’s just not possible.

1:36:04Like there’s really I think like streamers, especially are super low value.

1:36:09They’re overpaid by these like stakes of the world who can overpay and capture market share that way.

1:36:14So we have to find other back doors to capture market share.

1:36:17And that’s what we’re going to continue to do.

1:36:18Just a moneyball style, back doors, creative things.

1:36:22So that’s why we don’t really do a lot of the normal route stuff outside of a few people.

1:36:26But yeah, I don’t know. I kind of ramble there. But yeah, no, no.

1:36:29I think it’s super interesting.

1:36:31I also find it fascinating that what we’re kind of seeing the meta in the consumer trading app space, it’s all social. If you’re not doing social and community based stuff, like we launched squads, we had FOMO come out with clans, I think Pumps going to come out with parties.

1:36:47Like that seems to be...

1:36:49Yeah, yeah, yeah. ...Hey, community people together. Like that’s the new do it or die.

1:36:56Yeah, I think after that, as everyone becomes more disconnected from like real reality, they want to be connected in the virtual reality space and, you know, casino online casinos are a part of that for sure. So I think...

1:37:07Someone saying metaverse? I was about to say metaverse coming to yeet.

1:37:12I mean, hey, it’s definitely on the idea board.

1:37:16I don’t think it ever made it past that to the roadmap, but like...

1:37:19I got a bunch of decentralized that I can show you.

1:37:21I can’t remember what’s on there.

1:37:24It’s not on the roadmap yet though. We’ll see.

1:37:26Maybe someday. That would be pretty fucking cool.

1:37:29I remember in 2021, I was an investor in the central games, the Centralland games, and it was a casino in the Centralland.

1:37:40Idea was great. Yeah, but for once in time... There’s something there. It’s just like not ready yet, I guess.

1:37:46It’s not ready yet. There will be something there someday. Absolutely.

1:37:50So maybe we’ll be able to transition right into it with all the other shit we have on the roadmap.

1:37:54But yeah, the social aspect of all this stuff is definitely...

1:37:58It’s necessary if you want to succeed for sure.

1:38:02Do you view that as this social better gets deeper and deeper, more people are going...

1:38:12Like just the content side of this just becomes like a real true career.

1:38:18This is what we started the show with, was just saying everybody’s going to be streaming, like trading. Everybody’s going to be trying to make a name for themselves.

1:38:25Everybody’s going to be looking at a leaderboard and it doesn’t matter what platform you’re on.

1:38:30It’s like how much... Who’s the biggest winning gambler?

1:38:34Like we’ve seen this with like a lot of the casino gambling content has blown up over the last two years. I don’t know. I just feel like that’s the biggest part now.

1:38:48Yeah, I mean, it’s a career, but I think that’s kind of like streaming and content creating for gambling, especially is that like a pivot point where it’s like no one believes half of it.

1:38:56A lot of it’s like bullshit and fake. A lot of the characters that are at the top are, I don’t know, unlikable or just like old and saturated. And I think the market itself on streaming is super saturated for gambling. And that’s why we don’t, we don’t invest a lot of money in it. Because I think these people are stupid myself. A lot of them. I don’t want to say this out loud. I shouldn’t be hearing this. We’re going to fucking give them a site.

1:39:18But yeah, I mean, like we don’t think there’s a lot of value there is what I should say. So I don’t think it is a good career path to be like a streamer for most people. If you have like an it factor and you know, you’re gambling your own money or something like that, or who knows, like, there’s definitely people who could do it and be successful. But like, I don’t see it as like, you know, up and coming new thing. I think it’s super saturated for gambling already. Like that ship is sale. Those guys are already overpaid by, you know, hundreds of millions for a train wreck and all these dudes. Yeah, I don’t know. And as for trading, like being a trading streamer, like G money and I said in the beginning, like trading super boring. So I don’t know what the hell people are streaming. Like, like, honestly, like I think somebody was like, Oh, you should treat me stream yourselves trading. I’m like, you wouldn’t be like, I’d be like sitting there like browsing like the internet. It’s just gonna be yeah, you might as well just be fucking Truman show. I mean, like there’s an opportunity for like, yeah, me and you just be truly show you just fucking watch us all day. Maybe get one clip a day, one clip a week.

1:40:24Yeah, it’s like, I don’t know. Yeah, you’re gonna need some good clippers maybe then.

1:40:28But well, I mean, I guess like, I mean, so like, like TJR, right, he posted this thing about over the weekend of how, you know, he was pissed off because he had to wait in the airport for a couple hours instead of flying private is like it to your point is like part of me is like, this is ridiculous. And then the second my second thought right after that is, yeah, dude, he’s like farming streams here, right? Yeah, it’s like, like farming with these kind of comments.

1:40:56I’m trying to figure out my camera situation. It’s not great. Yeah, I don’t know. I mean, like, it’s another one of those guys that I just, I don’t want to say anything bad or negative about people. But I don’t know. Is he a good trader? I’m not sure.

1:41:10But yeah, I have no idea. He’s a great content creator.

1:41:13Exactly. He sells courses, good content creator, who the fuck knows? But like, there’s a lot of these kind of guys who are like kind of ambiguous, like what their trading skills are in their background. So I don’t know. They’re good content creators for sure. And they have great distribution. And they do super well, and they make a lot of money. So is what it is. I don’t know the dream they’re selling is kind of like, I don’t really love it. But I mean, I also own a casino, so I can’t can’t be a thrown stone. So that’s what it is. Do you got to do?

1:41:44Do what you got to do to escape the permanent underclass.

1:41:48Yeah, exactly. No, I mean, it’s all it’s all AI fueled, right? Like, before AI takes all your jobs, are you what’s your take on the AI cycle and that?

1:41:59I tried to get in and then I fumbled I was talking to G a while ago. And then yeah, I don’t know, dude, I have not. I feel like I’m an outsider right now. I have not taken advantage of it. Well, no, if I need like, do you mind you still are you still using it heavily? Or what?

1:42:14Yeah, I still do. I say I use it way less. I have like one strategy that I run with it for equities. Just the strategy that like, I wouldn’t say it’s like, great, it’s up. But it’s not like, I don’t know if it’s necessarily scalable. And I don’t know if it’s, if it’s worth like, because it’s like, I’m also not a quant, right? And so it’s like, I’ve also like dabbled with building a system around the way I used to trade, because I used to trade like around like, research and like getting covered by by all the banks on the street, and then coming up with my thesis for the day based on that. But it’s like, I got to set up all those, like lines again, and stuff like that. And just like, like, and you know, this, if you’re not like my issue with trading, and pushing it as like almost like a lifestyle type of thing is like, if you’re not committed to it, 100%, you’re gonna lose money, you know, it’s a very hard business. And so it’s like, you have to like, even like with a lot, a lot of times these news things like, you know, when breaking news happens, and I catch something like an hour later, it’s like, yeah, man, like, as a day trader, as a scalper, like, you need to catch that the second it happens.

1:43:25Oh, yeah, you need to be looking at Bloomberg like hot and I hot and fucking be there ready to go.

1:43:30So it’s either like, to me, the way I view it is, is like all or nothing. And it’s like, if you’re gonna if I’m gonna half asset, yeah, I can put on longer term trades, I can have like these swing trade DCs where if I’m if I get into something within like three or 4%, is it the end of the world? No, right? Maybe I obviously take on a little more risk. But like, it’s not where I’m like, taking a highly levered move to catch like, you know, 3%, right, which is what, you know, I would do out of the profit. So yeah, it’s there, I utilize it, I can honestly say that whenever these things are down, my productivity level goes down, because I just use it for like, like almost pretty much everything at this point. Yeah, makes sense. Yeah, I need to get deeper in the trenches with just like, kind of been focused on other things, I guess. But yeah, I mean, listen, it’s it’s tough when you run a business, especially when you have like an organization of people. Exactly. And 24 seven over here, always something going wrong. Or somebody trying to take us off in some way. But yeah, I mean, I feel like at this point, I just need automated trading of some sort. Like, I don’t I’ve left easily.

1:44:39Millions of dollars on the table. Where’s by the grid bots? He’s those I don’t know.

1:44:45Have you have you looked into like grid bots at all? Have you I mean, he was like, that is insane that how much money he’s printing off about just like, yeah, God, it’s like, why it’s like wideband market making, right? Isn’t that kind of exactly kind of I mean, it’s not I mean, like, he’s not doing enough size for it to be like that. But it’s exactly what it is. It’s just like wideband, like, marketing trading. Exactly. So I think it works really well in the market just stuck in a range like it has been you print money, obviously. But yeah, I don’t know. It’s a he says he’s doing well. And he swears by like, as like a part of his portfolio, just to like automate that. So maybe there’s something there for the AI trading stuff. I don’t know. I have a hard time like trusting AI trading just like, like you said, I’m not a quant eater. So it’s like, I don’t know really what the hell I’m doing to be automating some shit like, I’m more of the yeah, many rungs below a quant sadly. Yeah, I told you money this the other week, Lute got invited into a quant firm that we’re working with. And I was joking with like, all these people that think that they can outsmart kols and you know, front run kols on like the meme coin space. And like, think they could be

1:45:58smarter, they don’t realize like, behind every token, every single block, there’s a quant firm in Brooklyn, sitting there with you know, 12 of like the smartest motherfuckers you’ll ever meet.

1:46:10And they’re literally thinking, how can we make half a cent on you know, this trade how like, and you just have sharks that are printing on a daily basis, a couple million dollars across every chain and extracting. And they’re not actually clicking it, it’s just automated.

1:46:26And that’s who you’re like actually going up against that you don’t know. And they weren’t here previous cycles, or at least to the sophisticated degree that they are now.

1:46:34This is to that point, and I’m going to show NFTs, I think there’s going to be an NFT bull run coming.

1:46:40But I remember I forgot who it was. But somebody said this during the NFT cycle of like, you guys are trading against like SPF and three AC in the order books, when like you could just be trading like JPEGs and not have to deal with like these guys trying to clip you off, right?

1:46:55And it’s just kind of like all the sharks are in the most liquid markets. Obviously, there were people and market makers that came to NFTs and you know, Pac-Man that you know, really put that nail in the coffin. Like, you know, it’s just like the markets will be inefficient until these guys see the money to be made, right? Yeah, exactly. Is there NFT bull run coming then?

1:47:19I think so. I like I think I’ve seen some. Have you looked at FWA?

1:47:24No, it’s basically an on chain gotcha. Okay, I’ll take a look at it.

1:47:30And like, I think that’s really interesting. I thought to me, the very the most interesting primitive on it is the fact that like you can deposit act like into the prize pool.

1:47:42So you can earn yield on that prize. So like you’re the house, which like all the other ones, like, just never had that option. And so people are starting to build on top of it already.

1:47:52It’s got like a bunch of fees that it’s generating and buying back the token.

1:47:56It’s only 20 million FTV. So I think it’s very cheap for what it could do.

1:48:01It makes sense for KBM to be the guy to do the Apple Pay abstract for for it, because nobody’s built like a consumer grade app that just lets you do Apple Pay deposit and like spin for this stuff, which everybody has kind of said in the world of like, gotcha. There is no open source Polymarket style, anybody can build on it, anybody can deposit, anybody can be the house.

1:48:27And, you know, people want to spin for Pokemon cards just as much as they want to spin for, you know, a board ape, if they just know that like they could hit the lottery on one of these hits.

1:48:37Yeah. Yeah, we thought about them to the casino a couple times now, maybe a little down the line.

1:48:42But I don’t know what these on chain ones, it’s like they never they always like sound like great idea. Same with the on chain casinos. And then like, I don’t know why none of them really scale or get liquidity. I mean, there are reasons why obviously, but yes, weird.

1:48:57Well, I mean, aren’t some of them, I think I know what what on chain can see in your time of like, aren’t some of them just like exit scams for the founders to know, like, look, I know, like how they stop, they shut it down. Like if they had more liquidity and we’re getting more players, they would have stayed around.

1:49:13Obviously, they were not playing money ball, they were paying people $500,000 to shill. So step one, knew they were going to flop, unless they created some crazy escape velocity, based off those people, but didn’t happen clearly, obviously. Um, but yeah, I don’t know, I think on chain casinos just have a hard time because like, there’s just like a lot of things like that you can do if you’re centralized. Right. That are just better, like rewards wise and retention wise and, you know, speed probably as well. But I don’t know.

1:49:44Maybe there will be good on chain ones, I’m sure at some point, I know shuffle is creating one.

1:49:48So we’ll see how they do with that. But yeah, I know it’s gotcha thing sounds cool, but I think that’s easy to do on chain for sure. And those are super fun. I got addicted to the card gotchas for a bit there. I still have money. Yeah, nice question.

1:50:03I mean, there’s a there’s a there’s a there’s a Pokemon on there. I think it’s the highest, the second highest prize in the vault after a hoodie bump. So I want to put some spins in.

1:50:14I might have to. KBM returning to NFT is this is 2026 is going to be the weirdest year of all time. I still can’t believe I remember when your penguin got bought was like truly one of the funniest NFT experiences I’ve had or like what three moments I’ve had just watching you be like, I can’t believe I left this listed. Yeah, that thing’s been on a ride. It actually got like, got liquidated on a loan platform because I was that I was fucking around with and trying and I forgot about it completely. And it got licked. So not even mind anymore. Like all I had to do is like, pay like three, but yeah, GG penguin. I mean, if it makes you feel better. I don’t know if you remember that that NFTEX 8 punk that was fractionalized. I went to go save it from like a one-eat bid and I missed it by like, no thousand of a penny. And then the guy got it because they were thousands of a penny short. So it is what it is. I’m curious KBM, I’ll kind of like turn turn things over to you here. Like what do you got on your radar outside of you? Let’s go.

1:51:27Like do you have anything attention wise looking forward to in the markets or just, I mean, just since I’m like a short term trader, it’s just riding the waves. Like now we have this crazy pump on everything. And you know, I’ll just trade that in different ways that as it comes down the pipe, I try not to have like biases or, you know, get too committed to positions. So I just think things that as they come, I don’t have any like good things to throw on the radar, no meme coins, no random shit like that. I mostly just trade majors to be honest with you. That’s pretty much it. And then like, you know, for equities, it’s just literally the news of the day and earnings that come down. So I’m kind of like a shitty guy to ask for good ideas.

1:52:11That I just let stuff come down. That’s the life of like a trader, a short term trader, you kind of have to like, we make jokes all times, like don’t be an analyst. Like it, we don’t, it’s more like a turn your brain off style of trading that I’m really good at. So it’s more like, you know, playing a video game and reacting quickly and just being in tune with different news and stuff. And then you can kind of keep things simple, not overthinking and just doing things as they come by. Other than that, chillin with the family, you know, going on some work trips, not much going on over here. Just relaxing, I guess. Yeah, it sounds like a good life, man. Yeah. Can’t complain. I mean, look, that’s, I think that’s like the dream, right? Like be building something to make a thousand trades a day. And yeah, I mean, it should be now like reading Twitter. And I definitely get like, maybe I’ll even say, yeah, I get like jealous or not jealous of like, I don’t care about the PNOs or PNOs are super small. It means I’m like, these kids are just like, these people are dumb or like something like that. I’m like it tilts me. It’s like, yeah, I shouldn’t let stuff like that. Tilt me, but that’s when I come out firing on the Twitter. Once I’ve had

1:53:39like a glass of wine. I can tell what he’s been drinking a little bit. I can tell what he’s been drinking a little bit, man. Yeah, right. Like if I have a glass of wine, it’s like, uh, 7pm, you know, the KBM tweets might get a little raw.

1:53:54All right, cool. So I’ll be looking forward to that tonight. Happy hour after happy hour.

1:53:58You know, you’re feeling a little frisky going into the weekend. I’m gonna start tagging you at shame at 7pm on Thursdays and Fridays. I’m trying to go on a fucking health cake. I’ve been saying that for 10 years, but any day now, I’m thinking it might start. I’m like, holy fuck, I am washed up. I’m the washed up now, bro. Yeah, so I’m trying to say off the sauce.

1:54:23Maybe, uh, maybe I should have some green smoothies. I don’t know. But yeah, just showing all around. Oh, we love we love what you’re building. You are, again, an account that we can’t wait to see tweet on positions and then flip, you know, an hour later, and then flip again 10 minutes later. Yeah, man. We love what you’re doing.

1:54:47Yeah, guys. Thanks for having me on. I mean, like, sorry, I was late. I know you just did a two hour show now. Sure, with banger though. Miss the first half. I’m sure I’ve reiterated a bunch of stuff you already talked about. But yeah, good stuff. Now, we’d love to have you on and, you know, great to finally meet, I guess, face to face here. And if you’re listening, make sure you go and check out Yeet. Feel free to cap it out for hard shell for Yeet here.

1:55:15Yeah, I mean, like, it’s just other stuff I was saying, like, if you if you’re already gambling somewhere and playing on an electricino, and you haven’t tried Yeet, I definitely message me. I can onboard you and show you around and throw you some some juice, as they call it in the industry. But the reason you’d want to play on Yeet because everywhere else is because, you know, you have direct access to me, other founders, a community that’s actually positive and fun to be around. And we own the whole stack, everything’s instant support, withdrawals, like, I don’t know, we’re actually people who give a shit, I guess you could say.

1:55:48And I’ve been a huge gambler, I think I’ve done like, you know, multiple nine figures of volume in online casinos. So I think I know what people want and how they want to be treated. So you’re in good company, if you find it for sure. But yeah, amazing. GKBM, fantastic show. Thanks for coming on.

1:56:08Yeah, and for everybody tuned in. Thank you. We’ll be back Tuesday 10am Eastern.

1:56:13And we’ll catch you on the next one. Cheers, guys. Metafells. Peace.