Full Port 8/13 with Guest 0xQuit

0:03We are back. Happy Thursday. It’s a big day. Lots going on. Exciting things to talk about.

1:02I’m back with my wonderful co-host here, G Money. How are you doing this morning, G?

1:07I’m good. How are you? I’m fired up. I am fired up. It has been a... Look, it’s been a good week for me as a builder.

1:14It’s been a good week for me as a trader. NFTs are back. I had to go into my closet this morning and I had to dig out some 2020 merch. I had to rip out some doodles.

1:25Look at this. I pulled out the cool cat’s mug because the fact that we’re having a guest on today in 30 minutes here to talk more about NFTs, I should feel proud. I mean, I do feel proud.

1:39You should feel proud too that NFTs are back in the conversation in 2020.

1:44Yeah. Well, listen, I feel like obviously I see a lot of people like calling out NFT mens and stuff like that now. That part’s interesting a little bit, but I don’t find it that compelling and interesting unless it’s something really cool or brand new or whatever. What I’m more excited about is that I think the coolest stuff that’s happening on chain is forum NFT bros. The NFT market and the NFT builders are coming up with, I think, the coolest mechanisms on chain.

2:17So that to me is like what I’m the most excited about lately.

2:20Yeah. I go back to some of these events that we had back in 2021.

2:28We had people being as creative as possible. I mean, the whole game for NFTs is how creative can you be to stand out. I feel like in the meme coin token meta, it has been almost a game of how good can you just market the speculation? That’s the product is how can you get people to be like, oh, I have to speculate on this instead of people were trying to do crazy things with art.

2:54They’re trying to innovate. We saw even like Daniel Archim come out with stuff that was like 24 hour dynamic NFTs. It was cool. You saw people pushing the boundary.

3:07Yeah. I think that that’s to me, again, the coolest stuff. I tweeted out last night our NFT bro is going to save Ethereum for the second time because honestly, the most culturally relevant that crypto has ever been was during the NFT market. I think the trading stuff, obviously with the perps and the on chain meme coin trading, obviously has garnered attention because there’s marketing funnels running around it. But I still think that that’s probably very niche. I think the most broad acceptance of people having any idea what the fuck is going on or having any semblance of caring happened during the NFT run.

3:55I think it’s exciting. Obviously, I think the Pokemon stuff with the on chain gotchas has been great. But ultimately, I do think I’ve had a couple of people talk to me a little bit like, oh, it’d be cooler if you could get like real world stuff on there. I’m like, well, there’s like a Pokemon card on there right now. I’m sure there’ll be more. It will.

4:20We can talk about this with quit when it comes on, but I think the API, APY, when you post an NFT. I think my numbers were wrong the other day when I was earning 10% yield per day. I was going to say that is actually insane.

4:36Yeah, I wish it was real. I wish it was real. But it’s still 50% APY per year.

4:46That’s still pretty good for an asset that is otherwise in your wallet. So I think that’s pretty cool. I’m still farming it with a bunch of tokens, putting stuff in there. And I’d like to I’m very interested to see other primitives that are coming out. I think before we start talking to quit, he’ll be on I think in about 15, 20 minutes. I think there’s two things that I want to talk about. I don’t know if there’s things that you want to talk about before he gets on. The one I want to talk about is Nebius’ blowout number. What you called Tuesday at 1030 am or 1130 am right as we’re wrapping up the show. Yeah, he came on here and he said, Look, I’m here my three biggest positions. I’m going to be adding into MBIS into earnings. I had yesterday I’m adding more today. Yesterday we had MBIS rip 30%. So for those who had threw on the 10x leverage trade, people were looking at 3x return yesterday, which is I mean, it can’t be upset about it. Yeah, I mean, like it’s it was a great trade. It’s up another five, 6% today. If you want to bring up the chart really quick. Yeah, let’s do it. You know, like the setup was really good. Obviously, Leopold getting blown out at the lows.

6:14Now I think the story is gonna start to be like, we’re already get blown out. So it’s like, you know, I want wanted to make I didn’t have the time, but I want to make that meme where it’s like, you know, like, what’s his face from Truman show where he’s like, all right, now do this and be like, all right, now blow up birdie. Right. So it’s like, yeah, very like yesterday, the clothes tweeted out that he added more, I think near the highs of the day, and that like, this is what the top looks like. And I just think he fundamentally on misunderstands what’s going on here. And I think between core, Eve and nebulous is numbers yesterday, and their conference calls at core, Eve on on Tuesday night, nebulous yesterday morning, they basically were saying that they’re, they are now read, doing long term leases for the a 100s, which are like four or five years old already, for another like three years at higher rates than they were being previously rented for. So that pretty much breaks down his entire thesis of these things are being because like his original thesis for why there was an AI bubble is that these companies were depreciating it over six years, but the useful life was only over three years. So they

7:29were doing financial, you know, financial accounting, in order to, to take advantage of these accounting rules. And basically, that just like knocks it that really just shoots that bear thesis right in the head, puts it out back to sleep, like, you’re talking about having this thing being useful for at least one years, and, you know, maybe longer, right, who knows what that residual value after that. And like you’re seeing the market react, right? And so nebulous, again, it’s up another 5%. Today, it’s crushing, right? I don’t know, we can, it’s a rocket ship. We can put up that chart, but like, nebulous is crushing Micron is the other one. I like I said, I haven’t added to it, but like this chart starting to look pretty good.

8:16You know, it’s, it’s obviously not as strong, I think, a more crowded trade than nebulous has been. And then the other one is Nvidia, right? I think Nvidia at some point will really just start to catch legs. And again, it’s had like a long consolidation. And I think as people start to realize that Nvidia is not overlevered that they’re doing the right moves for like their business and AI long term, like I think it’s going to have like another powerhouse move up there. But nebulous is just like the darling right now, I think it’s like 300s of magnet now, I will say the biggest overhang for nebulous here, I think is they have an ATM, which is not the money, which means at some point, they’ll sell stock to raise money. So I think they’ll probably do that if I had to guess probably within the next like 20 to 30 days, maybe after I maybe they do I was surprised, I thought maybe they would have done it like last night into this morning. Maybe they wait till September, when people are back. And then it’s probably off to the races. But like, regardless, like the numbers were good. I was I was reading it. And I was like, I don’t see any hair in this whatsoever. So, you know, I think like just the ATM, that’s the only thing that Yeah, that’s like the biggest overhang,

9:34I think right now. But how big if the market knows that’s coming, how isn’t that to an extent, I think I’ll get like, it’ll be like a short term, like, I honestly think the at the money will get gobbled up, like maybe like, one, 1% below the print or some shit, like it will be like deep cold, because like, I think there’ll be like a lot of demand for it.

9:56But yeah, like, you just have to be like, usually it’s like, it’s an overhang, you get the trade done. And then you’ll move on, right? But this chart looks beautiful. It looks like, you know, it’ll probably like maybe like, maybe test that 300 level, pull back a little consolidate, and then ultimately go higher, right? Like, it looks like, I mean, if you were here, again, is this the drawing thing?

10:22That is the drawing thing. Right?

10:25You know, do a little thing, reverse head and shoulder, reverse head and shoulders, and then boom, maybe straight move to like 500 ish. So that would be kind of like what I’m thinking of, in terms of that. But yeah, I mean, obviously, great times to be in AI.

10:46Yeah, so that’s like, yeah, probably the best thing is to actually do like, the vertical cutbacks.

11:09We’ve been pretty good at saying don’t listen to just what’s being put in the media.

11:13You got to go talk to the guys that are in the trenches, doing these deals, understand, and like the financing side of this for him to come out and be like, look, there’s no, there’s no pause here.

11:26Like there might be some people that are over leverage and you have some like checkouts there, but from an actual fundamentals point, every big lab is looking for compute. There’s not a shortage of energy.

11:39There’s more demand. People are doing bigger deals.

11:43The deals are getting bigger. Keep going.

11:47And that to me was like, I was so close to selling my MU position and just being done and being like, look, I’ll look, I’ll wait and I’ll see if like there’s a better entry.

11:59And I think last show and the show before that, I said, look, I’m adding to MU and here we are and I’m up another 15% on that trade.

12:08And I think maybe even a little bit more, like I’m, I would not have done that.

12:11How did he not come on the show? Right. Yeah. No, I agree.

12:15Like I, again, in that pullback, the pullback was obviously vicious.

12:19I basically got down to like, just like my, my cash value.

12:24I got like took all margin off into that.

12:26And then once they created that bottom, like, listen, I missed out on whatever the reaction bottom that quick, like, you know, whatever, 10 to 20% and a lot of these things when they rebounded, but I’m OK with that.

12:37I wasn’t like day trading this position.

12:38So I was like, all right. You know, I felt like it kind of stabilized.

12:42I felt like obviously going into Nebius’s numbers, they were going to expectations had gotten so low that like it made sense to put the trade on.

12:52So I wasn’t the only one I know. Mando put it on.

12:55I think OSF put it on. Mando, Mando and OSF.

12:58And I got to like, obviously they’re doing well right now, but they they’ve historically been incredible signal.

13:05Like I really try not to just trail people, but they are two people and they’re like, hey, I’m doing this or I have this trade or I have this thesis nine times out of 10. I’m like at least I’m at least pulling up the chart, favoriting, like doing some like analysis, reading on my own.

13:23And I’d say, you know, one out of two times, I’m probably doing the trade alongside them. They’re just they’re locked in.

13:29Right. Yeah. No, listen, they’re they’re really smart guys.

13:33They’re finance guys as well. Right.

13:35They were trading. I think they were trading credit at Barclays together before they got into into NFT. So I think me and them see the world very similarly of like from a risk percentage perspective.

13:49Obviously, everybody has slightly different trading styles.

13:51But when I see them into stuff, looking at an interest in things like it always piques my interest because I know that they’re they’re money makers.

14:00Right. So again, like, you know, the Nevius trade was like it was a great setup.

14:04I think like I got I got a little bigger than like I was planning on getting into it with the gap risk and stuff.

14:13But I was just like, fuck it. Like, this is fine. Like, I have like longer term calls.

14:17So like I’m up, I think, like 50, 60 percent on those calls right now.

14:21And I just like, all right.

14:23Like, you know, I’m probably going to try to hold on to them for for as long as I can, because I think like the upside there because like I took the risk at this point. So you’re you’re bullish.

14:31You’re bullish. So, uh, and the I.S.

14:34What about the NVIDIA?

14:36You’re also you’re waiting for that breakout.

14:38You think the fundamentals look good there and they’re making the right choices of business as far as the AI trade goes here.

14:45Anything else that you’re like, look, we’re waiting for this to play out still. And I know Sunrise has played out.

14:51They got that $400 million contract.

14:55Well, I don’t think that’s I don’t think that’s played out yet.

14:57Right. I think that’s like starting to play out.

14:59I know a couple of people were tweeting yesterday that they felt like a big and a big winner, like the bottleneck trade is is Bloom Energy, because they’re going to be providing the energy for like a lot of these Texas plants, including Nevias.

15:15And I’m like, yeah, well, you know, the bottom that is on the bottleneck trade is scandium because all these bloom boxes require scandium in order to to be built right and to provide this energy.

15:28So I do think that like that stuff is super interesting.

15:33You know, it’s playing. I think it’s playing out.

15:34Like I said, I’ve been like pounding the table on sunrise since like 12 bucks when I first started talking about it publicly.

15:43And, you know, I think like this trade is kind of just getting started.

15:47It’s, you know, it’s bullish.

15:49Right. And so those are probably like my biggest, most conviction things like today.

15:55It looks like gold is having a pullback today.

15:59Yeah, gold is down like a half a percent consolidating a little bit.

16:02Talk about this last show, this being a Japan related trade.

16:09Yeah. Yeah. The Japan related trade and easing and all this stuff like that.

16:13So, yeah, it’s, you know, I think like you want to stay long, strong.

16:20The Kamala said Jackson Hole, which you’re talking to at the end of the month.

16:26So you’re going to be in charge of getting all the alpha out there.

16:30I think it’ll be very interesting when when Warsh speaks. Right.

16:35Yeah. I mean, look, you got to look at these upcoming kind of like signal events.

16:42I think that that’s going to be very interesting, especially after seeing how the first one went.

16:46Well, we’ll see.

16:49I don’t really have a straight opinion there.

16:51I’m curious what the current predictions for that are.

16:58I can pull up the meeting here.

17:05The Fed decision right now.

17:06Oh, yep. Here we go.

17:08It’s 73 percent. No change right now.

17:11Here looks like for the Polymarket.

17:14Twenty eight percent of a 25 percent increase.

17:18So it looks like we’re getting no change going into September right now.

17:22That is what’s priced in. I think I that moved yesterday after CPI, right?

17:28This move. Yeah, this is right at.

17:32Yeah, like I think it moved a little bit yesterday.

17:36Like I guess not that much after CPI.

17:39Yeah. No, yeah.

17:41It was 730 a.m. on on the seventh.

17:45That was the big move.

17:47Yeah. OK. Yeah, CPI was yesterday.

17:51So the 12th. Yeah.

17:53OK, cool. Yeah.

17:56So I think that’s like it.

17:59I think I’m like the macro market side of things.

18:02I think things are going to start slowing down now.

18:04I probably think retail consumer stocks probably start reporting all that’s left for the most part.

18:11But yeah, I think like things are going to slow down on on TradFi for the next couple of weeks.

18:19But I also want to talk about this entire debate that’s been going on between the Zoomers and the UNX on the timeline.

18:30What what is the Zoomers and the UNX debate?

18:33Oh, are you talking about like the plumber like the plumbers?

18:36Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So first off, I want to shout out to Thread Guy because I do think like he just rage baited and get the entire timeline talking about it.

18:46My opinion is that, listen, there were good actors and bad actors in both.

18:54I don’t not to you know, like I think as a trader, you just need to adapt to markets that are changing.

19:02And when the markets adapt, if the markets change, if you don’t adapt, you’re going to stop making money.

19:09You’re going to have to find something else to do.

19:10Right. And so good traders adapt.

19:13That being said, not every trader needs to trade every market.

19:16Right. Not like there were sectors personally that I wouldn’t touch.

19:20Right. I’m just like, I don’t like biotech. Right.

19:22I don’t trade biotech. I don’t understand it.

19:24I don’t have an edge. If I don’t have an edge, don’t need to play.

19:28There’s plenty of other places where I feel like I have more of an edge.

19:32Mean coins for me, I don’t trade them. I don’t have an edge.

19:35I don’t think I understand it.

19:38I don’t want to be staring at my screen 24 seven, trying to catch something before it goes.

19:45It’s just like not it’s not the way I trade.

19:48I’m not saying that it’s wrong or whatever.

19:50You know, people want to trade that way. Fine. Do it.

19:53I don’t care if you make money. Great.

19:55I don’t think the bank necessarily cares about how you make your money.

20:01Right. They don’t ask you, I guess, unless you’re a drug dealer doing something illicit.

20:04Right. They’re not like they’re not sitting there being like, oh, yeah, like, how did you make this money? Will it deposit or not? Right. They take your money as long as you are making it legally.

20:14I know that there’s accusations of whether all the bundling and insider’s cabal stuff or whatever. But listen, like you don’t like the game.

20:20Just don’t play. And I think that personally, that’s just kind of how I feel.

20:25You know, I just I did take one issue with what Frank was talking about.

20:31Like, I think, you know, I get the issue that he was trying to say with that Axiomfinity P&L.

20:37But like, I think Axiomfinity was probably the worst possible example you could have picked from last cycle, because Axiomfinity was the only thing was not the only thing, but that was like the number one thing that you could have bought liquid for almost unlimited size and like front run VCs, because like I remember buying Axiomfinity at like, I think it was like seven bucks was like my best buy, maybe six fifty, like around there.

21:03And I thought it was so late because it started trading at like 20 or 30 cents.

21:09Right. And then it ran to one hundred and sixty dollars.

21:13And at at the highs is when Andreessen, Paradigm and a bunch of other tier one VCs did around like the highs.

21:24So like these like retail like like VCs were exit liquidity.

21:29So I get what he was saying.

21:30Like, listen, I think meme coins started as a populist revolt against the low float high FTV scams that started coming probably like, I don’t know, like towards the end of 2021, 2022, where the worst possible example you can use.

21:51Because I think that that’s where a lot of people, including myself, made a lot of money. And it was I’d say it was probably the original revenue meta token.

22:00They were making so much money hand over fist.

22:03They were like people in the Philippines. So is Frank is Frank just wrong about the Axiomfinity example?

22:11Like in terms of like dumping on retail, like he was using that to say, oh, all these VCs and whatever.

22:17Like there were people that did the seed round, right?

22:20Yeah, they did a seed round at I think 10 million.

22:22I think the seed round for Axiomfinity was like 10 million dollars or 20 million dollars. Right. And then it was trading liquid. It started going liquid at like 30 million dollars.

22:31And then it ran to I don’t know what it was, 10 billion, 3 billion, some shit, like some insane number that like if you were paying attention, you like there are a lot of like like a lot of NFT money was made in Axiomfinity.

22:46A lot of money was lost also in Axiomfinity.

22:48You and I know that from. Yeah. Oh, yeah. For sure. I mean, listen, like that was I think we started doing that.

22:54Ready player Dow was what?

22:56Probably like it was on that run up where you raised that 150 million dollar valuation for that fund, by the way.

23:04Right. Well, OK, so I guess to that point, like we seeded it.

23:08We seeded it at what was it?

23:12Eighteen hundred K. No, no, no, no.

23:14Like when we originally did it.

23:17Oh, no. Oh, like when we did Axiomfinity or like what was the fund ready player Dow?

23:23But I remember like it like we put it we like raised in like two million, I want to say.

23:30I think we raise I don’t remember.

23:32But I remember my markup like at that.

23:35I remember. I remember when we did the Axi stuff and it was ripping.

23:39I remember being like, holy shit. I just turned like I think I turned 50 K and like four or five million dollars.

23:47And I was sitting there like, bro, like this, this is the easiest shit ever.

23:51Like I like I like I think like my my unrealized game was like, I don’t know, 10 or 12 million dollars or so.

23:59Obviously didn’t sell anything. But the but yeah, like I mean, but I remember, dude, like there was a big VC that did that round at 150 million for ready player Dow.

24:10So like, you know, it was three euros capital, I’m pretty sure.

24:14Right. No. Oh, no.

24:18TCG. Gotcha. Got you crypto.

24:20But like the the but yeah, I don’t know.

24:23I think you could have used a lot better examples.

24:26I get what he’s trying to say is that listen, trading is hard no matter when you trade, right, no matter what market you’re in.

24:34You just have to adapt. If you don’t like the conditions on the field, you can choose not to participate.

24:38That’s the good thing. You don’t have to trade.

24:40And it is what it is like. You agree on the idea that trading was the other rage bait that I don’t know if it was through a guy or Frank or who a lot of people in say in trading was easier in twenty one or easier in twenty seventeen.

24:57Twenty one, I agree. I think I think that was just a bull market. Everything was going up and you could have thrown a dart at a dartboard.

25:04You still had to be tapped in like you still you still have to be like paying attention.

25:07I mean, I think what you call easier, like you call it easier mean like you could walk away from your computer screen and you weren’t like worried about getting rugs in the next 30 seconds, because like if that’s what you think is easier than sure, it was definitely easier.

25:22But like there were definitely still rugs that existed.

25:25Right. Like they were like, you know what I mean?

25:26Like it’s like I remember. So I remember in the twenty seventeen cycle, it was all about how do you get allocation to an I.C.O.

25:34Make a quick like, you know, three to 10 X or whatever, because the thing would start trading and you just sell right away and you kind of like move on.

25:42I think in twenty twenty one, it was it was like somewhat different because like by this point, like Uniswap existed so people could trade.

25:49So like if you were more technical, you can like not me, but let’s say like create bots that would like because I remember like I’d be sitting there like I want to buy something like I’d be going on Uniswap.

26:01And I’d be like, buy slippage like 15 percent because like you’re trying to like get it. And like, you know, I was definitely I was definitely like getting fried against like some of these bots.

26:13But yeah, I mean, this is just a different market. Right. Like, you know, it’s like I saw somebody post yesterday who’s like, oh, a hundred million dollar idea is allow mean coin traders to start hedge funds, like to be able to back them.

26:27I’m like, first, that’s not scalable.

26:29And like also it’s like, why would a mean coin trader raise whatever?

26:33Let’s say like I’m a good mean coin trader. Why would I raise $100,000 when I could like, you know, like I from my understanding is that you put like a thousand or two thousand bucks into a meme and make like whatever 10 to 100 grand.

26:48Like you don’t need like you just need like one winner if you’re good at it. Right.

26:52And so it’s like I’m like, it just doesn’t make sense because there’s no there’s no liquidity there.

26:56We’re going to. But we’re seeing like, I mean, like even with us launching squads yesterday, like I do think the meme coin and the trading space is going to get a lot louder and I think it’s going to get busier and you’re going to see like almost innovation you see happening, like define NFTs like you’re going to see just happen to the general speculation space.

27:15The tooling and products and ways people interact and flex and share is just going to go.

27:23It’s going to get really crazy.

27:25Yeah. Yeah. Like, I mean, I think the craziest thing I read yesterday to that point was people, I guess, and I didn’t realize it was possible and I don’t even know how this is legal. People are betting in their IRAs.

27:43Right. And I guess this is possible because you can bet with Robinhood. Right.

27:49So you can you can do prediction markets and people are using prediction markets in their like retirement accounts.

27:55And I’m like, holy fuck. Like, that’s not good. I honestly, I don’t think that should be legal.

28:01Like, I honestly fully fully believe that, like you want to do prediction markets, you want to gamble cool.

28:07That’s on you. But don’t do it in your retirement accounts because that’s not that’s not what it’s meant for.

28:13That’s that’s my opinion.

28:15What is this? What is the trickle? What is the trickle down trade from that?

28:19Like, let’s just say it doesn’t get changed. People start doing it.

28:22We see it would be very similar to what we just saw happen in Japan with everybody using margin and then them having this full liquidation event.

28:31Obviously, there wouldn’t be a liquidation event off of prediction markets, but there could be substantial losses like that would just affect obviously savings across America.

28:41But where like where is the where’s the trade there? Is there a trade there?

28:47Probably like own a piece of a market maker that’s trading against them.

28:52Citadel, right. Like start your own if you’re good enough.

28:55That’s probably the trade. But yeah, I mean, I just think it’s like, yeah, I just do like that.

29:03We have a gambling problem in this country.

29:04I don’t think you need to not in this country on a global basis.

29:09I don’t think you need to make it worse by allowing people to gamble in their retirement accounts.

29:13I like if you have extra money sitting on the side and you want to gamble.

29:19Cool. I think that you should be allowed to do that.

29:21Like it’s a free world. But I just think if you that’s not what retirement counts are for.

29:26I think there’s there, especially if we’re like starting this stuff with the Trump accounts, we’re getting people like vested interests in stocks that are growing like, you know, like I just I think it’s very important.

29:38And I think that’s a very, very bad for society long term if people are allowed to interact with prediction markets in their IRAs.

29:48So hopefully like something passes for that.

29:50But I don’t know, probably not.

29:52We’re probably moving towards a world of hypergambling.

29:55Yeah. Yeah. No, I agree. I agree.

29:58Well, we got Alex quit here joining us today to talk about what he is building, what he’s working on on top of FWA.

30:05I got him in the waiting room. We’re going to bring him in here. First guess on this. So there might be a first guess with the new format, with the with the new.

30:15That the new format. So give me we’re going to pull him up here and give me one second.

30:23Let me see. All right.

30:32You might be like, oh, could you quit?

30:35Can you talk real quick? See if you got got you in here.

30:38Yeah. Test. Hello. Yeah.

30:41You hear me. Yeah, we got them.

30:43I’m going to set maybe.

30:47I can set. A.

30:54Yeah, I was sitting in the waiting room playing around trying to set my punk.

30:58Yeah, if you just hit the the setting, like the gear icon at the bottom and then you should be able to just add it in.

31:09I don’t know. I don’t see it.

31:12All right. Well, I will do it while maybe we get into things and we’ll go from there.

31:18Quit. How are you? I appreciate you.

31:21You come in on, you know, like I VMD look a couple of days ago to ask you about Flophouse, which you built very quickly on top of the FWA.

31:32So, yeah, I guess for like people, some people, I think you’re a legend in the space, but I guess a quick intro for maybe some people who don’t know exactly everything that you’ve been doing and then like a little bit about Flophouse a little bit.

31:47Yeah. So I’ve been in crypto a long time since 2013. That’s when I bought my first Bitcoin and I’ve kind of been all in ever since. And it took me a while to get into the Ethereum and like programmable money side of things, but started doing smart contracts probably around 2019, maybe 2018.

32:11And and I’ve been all in on that since.

32:14So I’ve done a lot of development work.

32:16I just play around and build like random shit.

32:18But even more than that, I do a ton of audits, which I think is actually very helpful for for my creativity, which is a funny thing to say.

32:29But like the more I read ridiculous code, the more my head starts turning and and I start getting ideas for things that I want to build.

32:37And it also means like, don’t get me wrong, audits are great, but they are extremely tedious and boring.

32:45So so when I break free of like that audit mindset, my brain just wants to go.

32:51So I think it helps me build.

32:54So so FWA most recently was a really fun project just to play around with.

33:04And Adam brought me on to to help with an audit for the V2, because I’m sure you heard about V1 kind of having an issue with the chain link callback.

33:15So he brought me on to help out with the V2.

33:17And when it was all done, he was like, yeah, did you give it a spin?

33:21And I I’m not I abandoned gambling in 2017 after I blew my whole stack on on Bitmex.

33:28Right. I was like, I’m not my thing.

33:30I’m done with this stuff. Right.

33:32But he was like, did you give it a spin? And I and I had it yet. And and I knew I owed it to him to just like try the product out.

33:39And then I was spinning. I was spinning all night.

33:43I was addicted. I was hooked. So the UI is great. The product is great.

33:47I just had like I knew it was going to be a hit.

33:50And and ever since then, I’ve been kind of like, I want to I want to see what we can build on top of this. I want to make it as successful as possible.

33:59And so I’ve had I’ve had a couple of ideas.

34:02I’ll leave it at that for now.

34:04All right. Cool. Yeah. So I guess what one is like to your point is I think the most interesting thing, one of the most there’s a lot of interesting things about FWA that I think is like awesome. And the fact that he’s built it as an open protocol, we already have.

34:22I’m sure there’s a bunch more, but three that like have like caught my eye of people building on top of the FWA that, you know, it’s what you’re building with Wap House, Mega Rip, and then the like the battle that that got that got dropped like overnight.

34:38I haven’t messed with Eric.

34:39Yeah, from Eric. Yeah. And so it’s like, I don’t know, to me, I think it’s it’s it’s really cool.

34:45And I think this is like something that I feel like is very unique to the Ethereum ecosystem is that when somebody builds something that’s really cool, people don’t try to fork it.

34:55I mean, people will always be forking stuff, but people don’t necessarily.

34:58Their immediate thought isn’t like let’s fork it and do our own version.

35:02It’s like, hey, like, let’s build something cool around this on top of it.

35:06And so, yeah, I think like what you built was was awesome because like I started farming.

35:13Like I felt like the yields and my numbers were definitely like really far off.

35:16And so I know we spoke about that like yesterday.

35:20But yeah, I think my dashboard now is is a little bit better and like I’m monitoring it.

35:24But still, like I think you said like the APY is around like 50% for depositing into the vault, right?

35:33Yeah, yeah, it depends on your size. So the bigger the size, the longer you’ll take to realize your gains.

35:38But generally, your expected return on a single deposit is like half a percent.

35:45It’s, you know, it’s minimal.

35:47But if you compound that over a bunch of deposits, then assuming that you track the probabilities just about right, you should come out with, you know, 50%, 70% over the course of a year.

36:02Yeah, which is like, which is really good.

36:05And so I guess like, I guess, to your point, right, because I think this leads into flophouse is the best yield is the crown, right?

36:14Because you get 1% of every spin, right?

36:17So like you want to have like the top NFT on there.

36:20But then the second best strategy for yield is doing a huge portfolio of the lowest price NFTs.

36:28Yep.

36:30Yeah, that’s what you built.

36:32That’s, that’s exactly what I built. So our goal is to have the biggest pool be like the biggest single depositor on FWA.

36:42And we’re not there yet. But we do have like, I don’t know, 40 something ETH and 500 NFTs or something deposited, which is pretty, which is pretty good, especially in the early days.

36:53And it’s been a fun experiment to play with.

36:57I know a lot of people that a lot of people came over and said I was farming FWA, this is easier, I’ll deposit here.

37:04But a lot of people actually said, I’ve never touched FWA.

37:07It was too scary for me.

37:09And this gives me a way to participate where I wouldn’t have been able to before.

37:15And I think that’s really cool.

37:17Yeah, no, that I think that’s awesome. Because like, again, right, it’s like, I have a bunch of NFTs that are eligible.

37:25So I was just like, yeah, I mean, I just put up ETH, like, because some people have been like, oh, it’s very capital inefficient. I’m like, yeah, well, like, NFTs are capital inefficient.

37:32So like, instead of just sitting there, like, like, I don’t have to spend the ETH to buy it.

37:37But like, I think to your point is like, if you have ETH, or you have like one of the NFTs that are eligible for for flop house, you can like deposit or yield, which is like, I think awesome.

37:47I think that’s to me is like, one of the coolest things of FWA is like, you can be the house, right? And so it’s like, I think pretty much every other gotcha that we’ve seen on chain, is like, you can play against the house, and then you spin and hope that your airdrop offsets the amount that you lose, right? And that’s kind of like, I think what you see with a lot of stuff on on on chain right now, with the gotchas, but like, to me, like the real cool thing that FWA did was, was allow you to deposit and be that that house. So I think this is also why I’ve compared it so much to like, Polymarket, which like, Polymarket came in and said, we’re going to remove the house. And also, you can build on top of us. And it’s decentralized, and it’s all on chain. For the collectibles market, this is the first time a lot of collectibles are coming on chain. First time a lot of collectibles have a new utility. And it’s the first time that you yourself as user can be the house, and you can build on top of it, with whatever ideas you might have. So that that’s like, not not to say like, oh, is are you going to see them run this up and you know, go and try to like, make a company and take it public and

39:04raise a billion dollar valuations. But I do think a lot of the mechanics and the fact that it’s almost a new type of market exists. So I think it’s a pretty fair comparable. And I think you could draw a lot of, you know, from that comp, you can say like, it has a lot of strength that this continues to pick up. And you believe in the gotcha playbook, staying strong over the next 12 months. Yeah, no, I agree. And I think like the fact that quit and other great builders are like choosing to build on top of it is a testament to that. Yeah, I mean, it’s the beauty of Ethereum, right? Is that you can just play money, Legos, you put out a product, I’ve built my thing on top of it, or a thing on top of it. And then somebody they can build on top of web house even.

39:57Oh, okay, tell me, how, how do you think how do you imagine somebody building on top of flophouse?

40:02I haven’t, I haven’t given that a ton of thought. But but for instance, the next thing that we’re building or the most requested feature that I’ve seen since we put out flophouse is like, I have an NFT worth five ease. And I can’t deposit it to flophouse because it automatically backs everything with 0.06 minimum backings for everything. And I know it’s not super capital efficient to put in an NFT worth five, but I do want to put it in. And so I think the next step would be a decentralized matcher. That’s like, you put up your NFT, other people put up the ETH, that gets deposited on your behalf. And if it gets spun out of the protocol, it just gets stuck right back in. So just like just like flophouse basically automatic recycling.

40:55It’s like Gandhi, but instead of loans, you’re getting paired. Gotcha deposits.

41:02Yeah, it’s like Gandhi. A little bit different because Gandhi can guarantee a return for the for the lender at least, or for the borrower at least. But the thing about FWA is that the projected returns are very good. The guaranteed returns are non existent.

41:23Cannot guarantee that you’re going to win. You could go on a totally bad streak or whatever.

41:28But yeah, similar to Gandhi. So you put up your NFT, someone else would put up a backing or a group of people would put up a backing. And, and you can, you can deposit that way. And as an NFT holder, I actually think the way it should go is that you can’t lose. Right? Like if you’re, if your NFT gets spun out and somebody takes the NFT, maybe you’re should add a lock, you get the backing back and you have to split that with whoever provided the backing with for you, plus whatever earnings you got from FWA. If somebody spins and takes the backing instead, you get the NFT back. And I actually think that the way it should work in that case is you as the NFT holder, you keep your NFT, the people who put up the backing have agreed to eat the loss if there is one. But if you win, if your earnings outweigh the, the backing, then whatever the proceeds are, I think you split with the NFT holder. That’s what I’m thinking at the moment, just because NFTs are non-fungible, right? So like the alternative would be a forced sale of your NFT anytime you don’t make money. And I think at the moment, when you’re depositing to FWA, most people when they’re depositing to FWA, it’s really about the ETH that you’re putting

42:51up, not as much about the NFT that you’re putting up. You’re kind of saying, I’ll put in an ETH here. I’m hoping it turns into two ETH. If they take my ETH, yeah, not the end of the world.

43:07So like, but then I like kind of push back there on what’s the point of having NFT in the first place, right? Like if it’s just a...

43:16Yeah, yeah. And you’ve seen so far, you’ve seen that most people have taken the ETH after a spin.

43:26Right. Not a lot of people have taken the NFT. And I think that there is like, there is a Goldilocks zone in there where you can price your backing such that it makes more sense to take the NFT.

43:42It’s like the way it works, right? If you take the backing, you pay, I think it’s what, 5% right now. So you lose 5% right away. If you take the NFT, you lose 1%. You pay a 1% fee to the protocol.

44:01So that 4% gap, I think, is your sweet spot. If you can price your NFT or your backing, rather in that 4% gap, I think you see more people taking the NFT rather than the backing.

44:13I also think there’s a world where, and I know Adam’s working on some stuff for like personalized pools and stuff. If you own your own pool, I think you don’t have to back your NFT at all. I think you can define your own price, right? And then people can just say, if it’s not priced correctly, because the backing is a form of price discovery. Yep. Yep. It lets anybody deposit, everybody gets pulled together. If you own the pool and only you’re depositing, then I think you define your own backings. And if you don’t define fair backings, people just won’t spin your pool. So you have that angle as well. And in that case, people just take, they have to take the NFT. There’s no backing to take. Right. Yeah. I was also going to say, like a lot of this conversation, I feel like has been under the assumption that the NFT is at a static price, which we know it isn’t. And obviously, ETH also isn’t a static USD pricing. But in the world where like we have most of the NFTs on there, like pretty, pretty flat line on price. We’ve kind of had some conversations around like, how do new collections launch with FWA? And then what happens in the world where you have a collection, like let’s say, Pudgy Penguins, who’s killing it in the web to use base right now? They get a,

45:38they drop a big announcement. And those start to rip, like, how does that affect, you know, your yield? Or how does that affect your, your positioning there as being a depositor of that asset? Like, I think those are interesting sides of this conversation that haven’t been explored too much. Kind of curious to get your take there. I think launching into FWA could be really cool. Because one, as an artist, if you have a collection, you, you said, what’s the point of the NFT, all of a sudden, the NFT becomes the point. So for instance, you back a whole bunch of brand new pudgies, something like that for not pudgies, obviously, you’re not going to release a duplicate collection. But let’s say a pudgy sub collection for 0.05 ETH, you back everything with 0.05. Everybody would rather have the collection than 0.05. But you as the depositor can expect to make about that much in yield anyway. So you’re getting paid for your mint, quote unquote. And everybody that spins the pudgy has taken the pudgy. Over time, I think you see more activity on the protocol level, as everybody tries to spin the new collection out. And as a as a as an artist, you have an opportunity to kind of gamble fi your your revenue stream, which is maybe a good or a bad thing. If you wanted,

47:17there’s an opportunity there, we’re talking about the matcher before.

47:21There’s an opportunity there for somebody else to put up the backing for you to you launch a contract. Other people provide the backing, they accept the risk. You get backed into FWA.

47:38Yeah, I think that it’s funny, I think. I think this this conversation is very prescient, right?

47:45Obviously, because I think we all follow boldly on itis. And he’s like, Should I drop a PFP? And I’m like, bro, drop it on FWA. But I think the question is exactly to what you said, right? Is like, um, how? What is like, why, right? Like he can do a mint and he’ll sell out. Like no matter what he’s doing, I’m sure he’ll do really well on it. I need my I need my PFP, by the way, I need that done. I know the story, the story there’s that I will get into it in a second, but I’m owed a PFP. Um, yeah, so then it’s kind of like, all right, what incentive does he have to do it, right? Because it’s like, to your point, quit, like if he puts up the ETH, then he’s like, all right, well, I’m putting up the ETH, I’m taking the risk myself, then like, I could just do a mint and just like not have to put up ETH and not take that risk, right?

48:34Could there be a dynamic where like, if you’re minting, you’re doing the role. And there’s there’s backd by somebody else. And it’s like, bold would if you claim the NFT, the money goes to bold. Like, that would be an interesting dynamic, because I thought about how you would do this, if you launched like a 10k collection just into FWA, and it’s like, look, this will mint out once all the NFTs are claimed through FWA, and the only way to get this is rolling would be a super interesting dynamic there where I mean, what literally like, let’s just say the only like, it’s just you’re rolling within the pool of those those NFTs, you could start to see people who are saying no, taking the ETH back and then rerolling just trying to find rares, right? I’m trying to find ones that they like. But at some point, the price of this starts to move up where it’s like, oh, you have to take the NFT because the NFT is worth more than the ETH that is paired with like that, I feel like it would generate more for the collection, because you would have people rerolling and you’d still sell it out at the mint price. Like, I think that’s the most interesting, like launch mechanic that FWA has made me think about. I’m not sure if

49:54anybody’s done this. Maybe I think I think we’ve seen some people try it with like, hey, if you don’t like it, you can like remint again. Well, I think it would be cool.

50:05I think to your point, Hunter, and I’d love to hear your quits opinion is like, that just made me think, right, I think becomes easier if he can just launch his own pool, right, just for his collection.

50:18In that scenario, maybe he doesn’t have to pack it with any ETH or whatever. And people decide exactly to what quit said of like, you know, when he prices it, whatever people decide what they want to do. But I think what FWA would allow, right, because like what you just said of like, the reroll mechanic, like there’s no protocol layer for that, right? So then all of a sudden, if you’re just because like, again, I agree with you as somebody that’s done mints, even like, let’s say when we did the black box for 90cc, one of the things we wanted to do was really like, I would like to like be like, hey, here’s a reroll mechanic where if you didn’t like what you got, you spend like an extra whatever, you know, you pay like a 10% fee to reroll or some shit, whatever, right, whatever it is, because people will reroll.

51:05Because they’re like, Oh, I want a rare one, or I didn’t get I don’t like this one, I want a new one, right. And so like, that probably generates more revenue than just like a straight up mint out.

51:18Yeah, 100% does. But like, then, then like, and then where my mind goes, like, not to turn this into like a product design conversation, but like, my head then goes like, all right, then you started thinking of pools, like, like box editions, like there’s different like Pokemon collections that you can draw from, like, and some are like rarer than others. So like, bowl could do the 10k collection, but then he’s like, all right, there’s like a booster collection that just came out, it’s only 500. And it’s paired with like, you can put in from the other collection, but then there’s mixed in rare ones for a different, you know, NFT collection.

51:58And that to me, starts becoming almost as synchronous with the like Pokemon and like sports card collecting world that we have, like that we haven’t seen come on chain. And that gets really exciting to me. But just like, I’m kind of just rambling here. Like, yeah, well, I think I agree. I think if you’re going to launch a collection, you want to mix it in with other things. And it can be thinks it can be to your point. Yeah, because if somebody wants to go spin, like, say you say you’re bold, and you put out a 10k collection, and you put it all in one pool, and people just go and pay point 05 to spin your pool, and no matter what, they’re going to end up with a bold PFP. I think that some of the dopamine you get from landing a bold PFP is washed away with that model. So I actually think it’s better. Like, yes, there are grills within the collection. But I think you want to frame it as landing on a bold PFP period is a grail.

53:07Like you spend you have a pool full of crap. And if you spend a bold PFP out of it, you’re like, fuck yeah, that’s a good spin. Right? Yeah, I agree with you. Right? Because like, to your point, right? Because then, if not, you’re like, Oh, I got a floor bold PFP, as opposed to like, I got any bold PFP, like, that’s awesome. Right? Right. That makes sense.

53:33I also think it adds time, right? Like, if you have 10k, if you have 10k, and you put it all in a pool, 10k PFPs, then 10,000 spins later, you’re minted out and it’s over. If you put it in a pool. No, but no, no, you’re not you’re not minted out because you would you’re assuming that everybody is playing the roles you’re saying. Yeah, like I’m saying to mint a 10k collection could be it could be 2030,000 rolls. I don’t that that’s interesting, right? Like, I like, cuz I’m, I’d be interested to see what happened with Jack Butcher, because Jack Butcher dropped, I think was 100 tokens, right? into FWA. Oh, did yeah, the rapper. Yeah, the rappers. Yeah, I actually minted one. And I was like, I was just kind of like mass like collect FWA, FWA. And I didn’t keep it. And I’m like, damn it. Like, I think I left like point three, eat on the table or something. I was like, should have taken it. But yeah, like, it’s like, to that point, right, is like I got one out of I think I’ve done 130 spins, one out of 130 spins was I got the Jack Butcher thing, right? And so what do you return on capital there? I’m curious. 130 spins. Well, I spent I think, like 18 ETH. And I mean, like, I was doing it during the farming period. So

54:59I was just trying to collect as much FWA as possible. So I think like my average price on that is around 20 million market cap, like around there, maybe like 24 million market cap. So I’m probably like break even at it is a 23.5 million as it comes across the bottom of the screen right now down 22.79% in the last 24 hours. Why is it down so much? Maybe life. Yeah, such as the life of a new token, right? Yeah. Also, like Bitcoin, Bitcoin’s been, I think, weak. So it’s probably just like a load of things. I’m like actually not not like, I’m like less concerned about the price of that because it’s like I think the gamification of it will will happen over time. And like, as long as you keep getting spins, then like, the protocol like survives, I think you just need to kind of really, it’s like kind of like first build the liquidity layer, which I think is happening, and then build the funnel and distribution, which I think will come. Yeah, it’s coming. I mean, I’ve all I’ve seen over the past two, three weeks is, is FWA and Stonk brokers on my timeline.

56:14That’s like, yeah, everybody in crypto is talking about those two things. So I think it has the distribution here in our space. And then the gacha mechanic is something that you know can be popular with the general public. So like, I don’t know, the upside seems unlimited to me. If we break out of crypto, I say we if Adam breaks out of crypto, it’s like all bets are off. It’s gonna be.

56:41Yeah, that’s where you go. That’s where you go parabolic. And that’s again, I still think in the early days of Polymarket, the comparables are so close here. And I would also say the other signal that I see for this being a good trade is Uniswap RWA volume has gone exponential.

57:03My prediction for RWAs has always been that you’re going to see it become to an extent like you’ll see some commodity stuff like gold, silver, etc. We saw that happen, then it’s to become equities. We’re seeing that happen. We’re seeing the SEC come out with 24 hour approval for trading equities. And then from there, my assumption has been, we’re going to start to see like, actual physical assets start to come on chain. I don’t know where that goes. Everybody uses like, who’s going to bring a deed on chain, who’s going to bring a car note on chain.

57:41But I look at probably to some of these people that are in like the warehousing vaulting ecosystem. So we’ll probably see like diamonds, rings, jewelry, some of like Birkin bags, etc.

57:55From some of those protocols that are building this stuff that are VC backed, and they’re going to be like, look, this is this is part of the case that we had, which was what crazy shit can you do when these these physical assets come on chain? Somebody’s going to make that first leap. And then I think it becomes a like, almost a sense of like, alright, if they’re doing it, we have to do it. And you just see a flood. It’s a mass, a mass run to the gates of like, putting these things on Pokemon cards, probably the main one that I’m excited for.

58:28I was surprised that at how well those transitioned to being like mostly on chain assets.

58:36Do you think courtyard does their own FWA? Or do you think they work with FWA?

58:40I know that they I know they work with FWA, courtyard and BZ and collector crypt, they all, I think all bridged via emblem. I don’t know if BZ and courtyard and collector crypt themselves were involved in that or emblem just said, yeah, we can wrap the assets and move them over.

59:04But yeah, I know that it’s possible to spin them on FWA.

59:11Yeah, I mean, that that’s really cool, right? And I think that’s like, also, the cool part about like, open permissionless networks, right? And so it’s like, all of a sudden, again, I think the interesting, to me, like the huge unlock and why I think this becomes like a liquidity sink, because you could spin something on any of those three gotcha sites. Maybe you want to, you’re like, Oh, I want to hold this card. But instead of just like holding it in my collection and not earning any yield, I can now put it in FWA and earn yield, obviously with some risk, but like, I don’t know, I think most people like outside of maybe like a huge grail, I think most people would take that right? Like somebody put a Pokemon card on there like a day or two ago on FWA.

59:54Quit in the number two spot or something, maybe number three.

59:58Yeah, quit. Where do you where do you see OpenSea playing into this, right? Like we it’s kind of crazy not to talk about the number one marketplace for NFTs right now. But you know, if you’re OpenSea right now watching this all happen, and you’re trying to gain as much market share, attention, etc. Like what, what would you be doing? Yeah, that’s a tough question. I’m not a businessman. I’m just a builder. But what would you build? I mean, like, look, like I give you the keys to the castle, you’re, you’re running OpenSea and like, go build whatever, what do you build for at OpenSea?

1:00:31I’d say, you know, OpenSea has been in the game for a long time. They always seem to come out on top. They, they’ve missed a couple beats, but they generally have their finger on the pulse, right? So if I’m OpenSea, I’m looking at myself, most of the volume in NFTs comes through my platform. They have a huge vault of NFTs, grails, etc. I probably put that vault up.

1:00:58In the protocol, and then maybe buy some token for the treasury.

1:01:06Send people through like the OpenSea front end to go do spins. And I don’t know, dot, dot, dot profit.

1:01:17Yeah, I mean, like that, this is like a different version of what somebody tweeted the other day of what you guys should do, right? Or even now should do with their treasuries, right? Because again, pumps are punks. Punks is the main one that was, yeah.

1:01:30Yeah. Well, you can have with their punks. Yeah, I’m gonna go ahead and squash that right now. I think those punks are way too precious. And like, it’s a, it’s a great opportunity. But if you get even loses one of those punks, people are gonna be people are gonna be angry. Yeah, I don’t think that’s in the cards. Yeah. I mean, like, I feel like nouns is, is probably like a better shot of doing it. But well, actually, no, I don’t think nouns is a better shot of doing it. I think nouns governance is like, so but like, like, if I was in nouns, still, I would be like, hey, like, let’s, let’s, let’s do this, right? I think this is cool. I think nouns was a great idea that just faded into irrelevance. But from because of governance issues. But I think this would be a good way to, to kind of do cool stuff there. Um, I know we have you for a limited amount of time, I wanted to talk about your what you tease at the bottom of WAP that I don’t know who found it, somebody found it. Basically teasing the crown zombie. One, one snow was the first person I saw that found it. One snow. Yeah. So I don’t, I don’t want to, I don’t want to reveal too much. But okay, let’s say you got a reveal. So no, I got I’m holding to it. He’s got a reveal.

1:02:57How cool would it be to see a zombie punk on the front page of FWA? That’d be cool, right? Right now, there’s a hoodie, which was actually would have been a week ago, I would have thought that was like the Grail. But now there’s a hoodie. So we got to beat it out. So how cool would it be to see a punk on the front page back with like 500 ETH as like the Grail Grail spin. And I think that the ROI of depositing a Grail like that is huge. Obviously, the best ROI on the platform, bigger the platform gets the higher the ROI gets. So the only the only problem is, I don’t have 450 ETH to put up. And if I did, I would probably be too chicken to do it by myself.

1:03:47But maybe a bunch of friends. Maybe a bunch of web three friends would be up for the task.

1:03:56I listen, I think, I think, I think it’s good. I like the idea. We talked about it. The other day, when, when I pinged you a little bit, I, I’m excited for it. I think I also think you’re one of the few people that has the trust from a lot of people because like you’ve done so much work in auditing and contract work and stuff. Because like I have had a couple people reach out to me like, Oh, this is what I’m thinking. And I’m like, that sounds pretty cool. But like, I don’t know who you are. So I don’t know. Like, immediately deposit my or my valuable NFTs into your protocol, right? Because there’s always that, that, that risk of that happening. And at least, I think a lot of that gets mitigated because you’ve done so much work on the contract side and the auditing side that you’ve helped people numerous, numerous times. I’ve gone to a website and it’s like, it’s audited by like Borg, audit by, you know, oh my God, blanking on the other big names. But then like, OX quit is right next to all of them, which is incredible to see.

1:05:06It leans into like how respected and how good you are at what you do.

1:05:11Yeah, thanks, guys. Thanks. I agree. I any protocol I want to touch, I first have to at least give like a cursory audit. And obviously, I can’t sign off of things on things after I look at it for like an hour. Typically, I spend like a week in this stuff. So I can’t fully audit every new protocol that comes out there. But, but yeah, it’s, it definitely gives me a little bit more confidence in new things, if I can just like, take a little peruse through the code and make sure there’s nothing at least glaring before aping some money into it.

1:05:51Yeah. Um, cool. Well, well, quit. Like, thank you for coming on the show and discussing what you’re building. I’m super excited about it. Um, like I’ve said this probably like a million times at this point. I think FWA is probably one of the coolest things I’ve seen in crypto in years. And I think it’s one of the most interesting things. Some of the most interesting things are coming out of it of people building around it. And I’m like, pretty convinced that NFT bros are gonna save Ethereum again. So here we go.

1:06:30Cool. Well, thank you guys. I appreciate having me on the show. And I think it’s been it’s been great.

1:06:36Appreciate having you on man. Looking forward to what you build. If you’re listening, we want to follow along. If you’re on Twitter, obviously, you can go to the show description. His Twitter is at 0x quit. Go see what he’s up to. Give him a follow. And appreciate you coming on, man.

1:06:54Cheers, guys. Cheers. Awesome. Thanks, quit. Um, yeah, man, that that was awesome. I love him. He’s such a awesome guy. He’s such a good force in the space.

1:07:05Good, like, like weird kind of like tangent, but like, ethically, one of the people that I’d like, if if I had to give a seed phrase to somebody on the internet that I’ve never met in person before, he’s probably on like that top three list of people. I’m just like, here you go. Like, I trust you.

1:07:22Yeah, right. Totally true. And you know, it’s crazy is like I’ve been following for so long. I the first time I ever spoke to him on like a call was I think yesterday or the day before because I had like questions about flophouse. And like, he graciously was like, yeah, like I’m free in like 15 minutes. And we had a great call. So it was good. He helped me understand it. Like, he helped me figure out that my dashboard was wrong.

1:07:45And I was like, I’m like, I’m like, I don’t I feel like I’m missing something. And then like, when I, I think my my issue that I that I did with the dashboard was that I was building it mostly with rock four or five, and I should have built it with codecs. So Yeah, why are you using rock four or five for code?

1:08:03Well, because I like I like rock, because it’s so fast. And I want to also mention this. So rock bot came out like two days ago. Yeah. I think I’m like so far down the algorithm on like equities and crypto now that like I’m not getting any like any of the AI alpha. And I was at dinner last night, my buddies like rock bot sick. And so I came home last night, and I started messing around. I was I was a little tired. But Apparently, like, first off, I guess grok 4.6 is now frontier or 4.7, which comes out in two or three weeks will be frontier. I’m gonna mess around with grok today, I’ll probably be tweeting about it.

1:08:44With with some thoughts. But yeah, I like grok, because it’s so fast. So like, I use it for like a lot of like everyday tasks and stuff. And then sometimes I’m just like running stuff in there. I’m like, hey, build this dashboard.

1:08:57Like, all right, this dashboard is good enough. And then like, I’m just like, I don’t realize it. But I’m working with grok the whole time. I’m like, ah, fuck, I should spin this up in codec. So after I spoke to him, I spun it up in codecs. And I still think it’s probably I think I still think it’s often might be overstating my my earnings a little bit. But like, at least it’s it’s better.

1:09:15That being said, I’m going to probably deposit into fwap house today in a little bit, because like, it’s basically automating what I was like doing on my own. I just wanted to like, make sure that the numbers are working out. So I don’t know, it’s I do. He’s an awesome force. The fact that he’s building this is really cool. The fact that you know, people are like building money Legos, which is why we love ETH in the first place.

1:09:41Yeah, man, it’s exciting. I love to see the collaborative, collaborative nature of everything around fwa. I love to see the NFT ecosystem getting love.

1:09:53You know, I think all around there, like, really especially I tweeted this again, I came from the NFT space. It’s where I made my name. It’s where I made my money. It’s where I made all of my, like my big friends in the space. I’m happy. I’m happy to see it going.

1:10:09It’s the complete opposite of what we see happening in the trading space right now, which is it is it’s a war zone. It is a nasty, crazy war zone, which to a degree I like. I enjoy it. I wake up every morning and I’m like, what’s gonna happen today?

1:10:26And we’re almost at a point where like, you know, we’ll maybe discuss a little bit because I love this. I love the FOMO versus pump discussion. I love kind of looking almost in the rear view mirror of that. It’s like the fight scene going on where there’s the guy smoking the pipe in the background.

1:10:47We have pump and FOMO and then like every other trading terminal seems to be kind of just like watching right now and like being like, all right, like hit each other again.

1:10:58Okay, so let’s talk about that, right? Because like you’re obviously, this is like your space, what you’re building with Lute, right? Like you’re definitely part of that conversation. So what are your thoughts as a founder of, you know, a competing product?

1:11:16So I think, I think you have, I think it’s good for this space because, and I can, I know this is happening at every other platform or every other trading platform because it’s happened internally at Lute, which is we’re in like product spirit mode.

1:11:32Things that were planned to come out in three months. We are, I mean, there’s no sleep. I have engineers that are falling asleep at their desks. I have engineers who are missing like life events to get things out.

1:11:46And so like yesterday we launched squads where you can make a squad, you can trade with them, you can read your telegram and discord chat in the terminal and click on scans.

1:11:56Things that like those are things that we had planned back last year had worked on it and we’re like, Oh, like we’ll get to it when we get to it.

1:12:04You know, watching FOMO come out with clans, right? Like, look, people like it, we need to do it. I’m positive. My, my assumption is either tomorrow, Saturday, Sunday or Monday, you see Pump.fun come out with parties, which will be another competing product.

1:12:21We also see both of them throwing a ton of money at traders and marketing and UGC and they’re bringing in a new wave. What I think gets really interesting is there’s a retention question that I think FOMO and Pump have to really, really be diving deep into.

1:12:41There’s a network effect that is the magnet where like once you get a user on there, like, Oh, I have a following here. I don’t want to leave.

1:12:48FOMO’s big issue now is execution. I think Pump Fun’s big issue right now is probably a little bit, a little bit of infrastructure, but also a bit of the social graph issue.

1:13:01They’re going to have to figure out a way to make just keep like punching each other until there’s like a clear winner.

1:13:08And like the other kind of like accepts their positioning, but they’re really just trying to go band for band right now. It’s, it’s, you know, I’ve compared it when I went to Monaco F1, it was like watching like the two tables, like just order bottles back to back and like you’re sitting there like these people are insane.

1:13:26Like it is very akin to that where they’re just going band for band.

1:13:31Well, it feels like it’s like Kalshi versus Polymarket.

1:13:33It is, it is. And, you know, I think, I think you could make the argument. Well, no, it’s clear. Kalshi is ahead right now from in the US. And they had the head start because they got the CTFC approval.

1:13:48And FOMO, in my opinion, is ahead right now because they have the social graph. And it kind of lets you if you go back to like first principle, you know, investing and product design.

1:14:01Once you have that social graph, you can just throw things on top of it and makes it a little bit stickier. You throw a little other thing makes a little bit stickier.

1:14:09My assumption is FOMO is going to come out with running their own internal OTC desk. I think they’re going to have great execution and cross chain execution at some point here.

1:14:19I think every other platform across look, I’m kind of sharing some of our playbook. But I think if you’re trading terminal right now, this is an obvious you’re you’re in bad shape, like you need to step back and you actually look at what’s happening.

1:14:35And I would assume Axiom is doing stuff. I haven’t paid too much attention to what they’re doing. I would assume Phantom right now is paying attention and trying to figure out their position.

1:14:46I would assume even at like Kraken and Coinbase, like Coinbase right now. I’m very curious to what Kobe is discussing there.

1:14:54I think it’s just going to get more and more intense on like who can who can innovate, but who can also just attract customers for us.

1:15:04I think there’s the question of like the only way that we win in the current way that we’re operating is we drop a product that’s 100 times better than something that FOMO and Pump.fun build.

1:15:16And I think that’s going to be like 20, 30 times better. Yes, I think we have things that are planned that 100x is like, it’s the white whale moment of like, how, how do you really bottle magic and sell it.

1:15:30I think that is that if you see where my mind is going and how I’m approaching this problem why I still think like we’re very dangerous in this current environment and why, again, for the fifth day in a row, Lute has an all time high metrics, all time high onboarding.

1:15:47We just signed, we got one of the biggest KOLs in this space only to trip on who’s trading onboarding, onboarded like such a huge number of people this morning was incredible to see.

1:16:00Things are good. Things are good.

1:16:02I also think if you’re a trader in this space, if you are paying attention here, it probably draws like, and I’m talking more like an asset investing standpoint, it probably makes it very clear to you that there’s a lot of euphoria going on, there’s a lot of rotation.

1:16:19And so, I think, you know, just looking at the ticker come across here, as you see some of these numbers that are low, and they’ve people have rotated into new narratives.

1:16:29I think you got to be asking yourself a question of like, okay, where, where does the trickle down go to the long term long tail assets and even the revenue generating assets.

1:16:38It’s why I love Pump.fun on a long term investment thesis of Pump. I think Pump is insanely undervalued for what they’re doing.

1:16:47I think there might be concerns of like, can you actually maybe see FOMO launch a launchpad that like rivals them?

1:16:57Does FOMO go to uni swap and say hey like we, why don’t we just work on something like there’s there’s millions of questions that come out of it but I like Pump on a long term scale right now.

1:17:08And I like uni swap on a long term scale. And I’m, I think anything that falls into that category and like the long term stuff like cashcat etc.

1:17:19Great, awesome. Things that I have my eyes on and you know I’m dollar cost averaging into.

1:17:25Yeah, I mean, are you, do you still have your pump lung on, like dude, that thing just got away from me, I should have, I should have bought it the first time you called that out on the show, because I was like, finding it interesting.

1:17:36I also think, to your point, I think Pump is going to do really well they’re gonna be, even if they don’t like win majority market share or whatever right like however you want to like say who’s the winner and who’s not, they’re still going to be winners right because they have a liquid token.

1:17:52You know, they have a liquid. It’s like the same, I, this to me is like very interesting because it reminds me a little bit like FOMO versus Pump reminds me a little bit of, let’s say courtyard versus collector’s crypt, right.

1:18:03And let’s say that those are the two bigger gotcha sites out coming out of crypto.

1:18:11Courtyard has no token collectors crypt has a token. Right. So it’s like I, you know, I fortunately was the seed investor in courtyard so I have a horse in this race, not to say that like collectors crypt can’t be successful right like I’ve been looking at the chart for that for a while.

1:18:28I just like can’t get past the valuation, just yet like I wish it was like a little cheaper on an FTV basis, but it is what it is like if it got there I’d be interested or if I saw fundamentals pick up, but I do think pump is like very similar right part pump anybody on chain can express that position.

1:18:46And on FOMO like if you’re, if you’re not an investor or on the cap table.

1:18:51You can’t write down. Yeah, FOMO has an insanely insanely big cap table.

1:19:00They got a lot of KOLs and they got a lot of traders in, you know, notably RNG is like ride or die FOMO right now at this point, which is interesting to see.

1:19:13Like you got a lot of people on the table. So understand that I think pump.

1:19:19You know, there’s a playbook here that’s happening, and you just see kind of two, two different playbooks meeting each other. What’s interesting here is I wouldn’t be surprised if you start to see a lot of pressure get put on pump to do an airdrop.

1:19:37I wouldn’t be surprised if you see FOMO come out with a points program.

1:19:42I would not be surprised if you started to see a lot of tournaments that have prizes and pools and way to earn points or airdrop, etc. or token come out of both.

1:19:56And so I think the next kind of leg here for each of them as they fight is like the incentive spool.

1:20:02I think this also puts a lot of pressure on OpenSea then to be like who was put a ton of money into token trading is how do they not lose what was and for a moment there, like 30 days ago, I was like, if OpenSea did these one, two, three things right now, I think it would solidify them as like a player and you would see OpenSea on like, you know, what is it like Adam Tech’s like Solana like bot tracking stuff on Dune like I think you might see OpenSea get included in that stuff because they’re doing more volume.

1:20:39Where do they operate here? I’m cheering for them again, like I think, you know, some people might be like, oh, they tease the airdrop, etc.

1:20:46But they’re an OG player in this space. You want the big companies in this space that retail is familiar with to be doing well and thriving.

1:20:54So I see I see airdrop season, not far away from us. It’s probably three months out, I would say by end of by end of year we are.

1:21:07I think December is probably insane for airdrops. That’s that’s that’s where that’s my dude.

1:21:13I remember my my my best airdrop story, I think, or my favorite airdrop story was, I think it was one inch.

1:21:22I think it was one inch that did an airdrop on like Christmas Day. Yeah. And a lot of this a lot of this is tax related for these these decisions to do it before the end of the year.

1:21:33I mean, there’s there’s a lot that works into it. But I don’t I don’t see a world.

1:21:40What’s good for the consumer is when companies are fighting for the consumer and they’re spending money and they’re trying to incentivize you and trying to like win you over.

1:21:49And we haven’t had that for a while, like all the airdrops have been almost, you know, extractive to an extent or like they’ve been used for like, oh, we just need like liquidity events for the company.

1:22:02Now it’s all these companies are thinking of airdrops in the sense of like, how do we lock this customer in for the next year, 18 months, two years and what and or make them love us or, you know, have an emotional attachment to us and never want to move services.

1:22:17And, you know, the trading space is such a sticky space. Once you’ve got a customer and they like feel comfortable, it’s very, very hard to get them off.

1:22:26It wasn’t like this 24 months ago, 24 months ago, I could dangle a carrot in front of I could, you know, literally sneeze in a trader’s direction like, oh, okay, like, like, let me jump over here.

1:22:38They’ve got a points program.

1:22:40And today I feel like, you know, onboarding somebody into a new trading product is insanely hard. You have to have a very good product. You have to have everything and more that the other platform there they were on had.

1:22:54And so, yeah, I think this benefits again the end consumer all day long.

1:23:00Yeah, I mean, I agreed. I think that like, you know, on chain spirits are heating up. They’ve been heating up for the last couple of weeks.

1:23:09I will say with all the heating up, right? Like, you know, the Bitcoin chart doesn’t look the best.

1:23:17Here’s the four hour chart. But like I do feel like, you know, like it’s probably maybe going to retest those lows, you know, or at least like, you know, go a little lower from here.

1:23:30Maybe I think we probably break that 62. You think so? Yeah, I think so. I just think that like.

1:23:37Is this you saying like a very cautious short is a possible play here.

1:23:43If I were to short, I would my stop would be the high from this day. So my stop would be 65 for 16.

1:23:55So at risk, like whatever that is. 65 for like $2,000 kind of. You risk 2,000 points, probably try to like play towards the low. Maybe I’ll put that trade on.

1:24:08Maybe I’ll fire up a Lute account and put that trade on.

1:24:10Okay. I’m not opposed to that.

1:24:13I think the...

1:24:16I feel like we should do...

1:24:17Like each of us should put in like a couple thousand dollars and trade our calls on here.

1:24:23And we can have that as an update of like how we’re doing.

1:24:25Because I’m not gonna lie, if we had followed our own advice and taken each other’s trades over the last two months we’ve been doing this show, I think we’d be up like... I mean like 20X almost at this point if you’re using leverage.

1:24:40We’ve kind of called it spot on for the last two months.

1:24:45Yeah. I mean, listen, I think this goes kind of back to what I always harp on is you don’t have to be in every trade. You just have to pick spots where you feel like you have an edge.

1:24:54And if you miss a trade, it’s fine. It’s not the end of the world.

1:24:58You know, I think the key to being a long lasting trader is being able to have a system, being systematic with it, being able to survive through ups and downs and drawdowns.

1:25:07And like, realistically, outside of maybe having like a real, like let’s say, big short type thesis where you’re like, all right, I’m putting it all on the line on this and that.

1:25:17Like no one trade is gonna make your career.

1:25:20You make a trade that makes your week, makes your month.

1:25:24Like very rarely makes your year.

1:25:26Right? Like I think like those trades are rare, but like almost never will you ever have a trade that makes your career.

1:25:32So it’s like there’s no need to ever be a hero.

1:25:36And if you do have a trade that makes your career, don’t make your career about that trade and call, you know, 150 shorts or 150 recessions.

1:25:47We’re taking shots at Michael Burry again on the show.

1:25:51Exactly. Exactly.

1:25:53I love it. Oh my God.

1:25:55Gee, anything else you want to go over before we wrap things up here?

1:25:59A fantastic show.

1:26:01Great guest from Oaks Quit.

1:26:03Are we missing any other conversation points here?

1:26:06Any other tokens, trades, lighter?

1:26:09Obviously one that I’ve shouted about.

1:26:12Can you pull up the lighter chart real quick?

1:26:15I still think the play here is I’m looking for some weakness.

1:26:20I’m bidding below two.

1:26:22Like two dollars, two dollars, 20 cents, somewhere in there.

1:26:27I’m waiting for a bit of a retraction and then I’m I think that is the trade, which remains from Tuesday’s call.

1:26:35They obviously announced they’re announcing stuff for Robinhood.

1:26:38I think in a world where I can’t, I don’t know what I can say.

1:26:46So Lute runs another company that does PerpDEX aggregation.

1:26:54And so we’re pretty tapped in with what’s happening in the PerpDEX space.

1:26:58I do think you start to see the venue offering start to converge.

1:27:05And so like what differentiates Hyperliquid from differentiates lighter from differentiating Ostium, RIP, and others that are coming to market over the next 30 days per se.

1:27:22I think you start to make the discussion point of who just has the best integrations.

1:27:27And who has the economies of scale.

1:27:30And I think lighter in that discussion is highly undervalued if you think that they start to get adopted by the Robinhoods, etc.

1:27:40And they become the venue or like the backbone to a lot of these bigger venues.

1:27:45And so to be 28x undervalued, what Hyperliquid is, there’s upside here.

1:27:52There’s upside all day. Is it, correct me if I’m wrong, I know the lighter story, okay.

1:27:59But from like, and I don’t know it well enough, admittedly, but one of the issues I think people were saying with like the Robinhood stuff was that I think there’s like almost no fees.

1:28:10Well, I don’t think they earn fees in general, but like it fragmented their liquidity, right?

1:28:15Because some of it like is on, are they on ETH or whatever, you know, their own chain or whatever.

1:28:22And then like some of that liquidity gets put on Robinhood.

1:28:24So it’s like fragmented a little bit.

1:28:26I don’t know exactly. And I think that’s like part of like the bear thesis, but I’m not really up to date on it.

1:28:31My thesis there, and it comes back to like, what is every trading platform going to have to do?

1:28:38Is that we see on-chain fragmentation become less and less of an issue as you see cross-chain execution become a solved issue.

1:28:47And, you know, right now it’s decentralized bridging.

1:28:53I think decentralized bridging will exist in it, and it will always have its place.

1:28:59And I’m sure you’ll see speeds get faster and faster and better security.

1:29:03But I also think you’ll see a lot of these venues who control the wallets fully, be able to come out with solutions to this stuff.

1:29:11And it’s a product class that if I had another million dollars, another three engineers, I think I could dominate Lute and put something out that the whole, like we could solve it in, you know, three months, probably less than that even.

1:29:27So there’s like playbooks out there, smart product guys and smart engineers and companies that are in this space are certainly thinking about it to some extent.

1:29:39I will let the narrative do that.

1:29:41I’ll let them drive the price down. I’ll be buying because I don’t see it as a risk factor to myself.

1:29:48All right, cool.

1:29:51Yeah, I mean, I think that’s it for today.

1:29:53Yeah.

1:29:55Have a great weekend.

1:29:57Enjoy your weekends, everybody. Yeah. And as always, be patient.

1:30:01Look for the best trades.

1:30:04And yeah, it’s true.

1:30:07Do we have any events coming up over the weekend?

1:30:11Anything tomorrow or over the weekend that we should have our eyes on?

1:30:13I don’t think so. No, I’m playing some paddle this weekend.

1:30:18That’s kind of the only event I got for everybody watching.

1:30:22Make sure to follow us.

1:30:24We just created the account Full Port Show.

1:30:30Yes, please do.

1:30:32Started posting from there. Going to be clipping up some stuff and been sharing some good stuff already.

1:30:38We got to give us some feedback on what you guys think of the designs.

1:30:41I personally love it. I think the creative is really good.

1:30:46I like the colorway. I like all that. So shout out to Hunter and your team for cooking that up.

1:30:53Yeah, shout out to IMSource, our in-house creative director at Lute who has been pulled into doing this.

1:31:01He’s designed some great stuff. I will give him, I know it’s kind of big here.

1:31:06I mean, I got to show this banner.

1:31:09This banner he made is so good, bro.

1:31:12Oh my God. I’m going to try to do that. Our banner? Yeah, I just put it on stream.

1:31:17I mean, it looks fantastic.

1:31:20And I love this little green, this aesthetic we got going.

1:31:23So we got more coming there on the design side in the coming days and weeks and shows. So as always, appreciate everybody tuning in.

1:31:33Please give us a follow on X at Full Port Show.

1:31:38Looking forward to the next week’s show on Tuesday, 10 a.m. Eastern time as always. And we’ll catch you then. 1030, 1030 a.m.

1:31:451030. Do we have a guest on Tuesday, correct?

1:31:50Yeah, we have a guest. Well, I don’t want to say it just yet.

1:31:53Well, we’ll tease it out. Big guest. Important big guest.

1:31:59I mean, I think people could guess who it is.

1:32:00But yeah, we have a guest on Tuesday.

1:32:03Probably one of the main characters, like top three main characters in Web 3 right now.

1:32:11Yeah. All right. We’ll leave it at that. Yeah. All right, guys. We’ll catch you next row. Thanks for joining in. Peace.